Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here. On today's show, we'll talk about where to find the city's best edible luxuries. New York Times reporter Nikita Richardson will join us to talk about it. We want to know how you treat yourself. We also want to talk to photojournalist Lynsey Addario. She's going to talk about her new documentary about her life, titled Love and War. Get ready to rumble because we are going to talk about an issue that people have strong opinions about on the staff when you put up your holiday decorations. That's the plan. Let's get this started with actor-singer Ariana DeBose.

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Alison Stewart: In 1976, the Stephen Schwartz musical The Baker’s Wife toured the country but never managed to make it to Broadway. Now, nearly 50 years later, it's finally made it to New York with a production starring Oscar winner Ariana DeBose. The musical takes place in a small French village where they have been desperate for fresh bread ever since their local baker died. They are thrilled with the arrival of a kind baker and his beautiful, much younger wife, Geneviève. She's played by Ariana.

The baker is charming and talented, but a young, virile man becomes determined to win Geneviève's heart, and it may be up for grabs. The Baker’s Wife is now running at Classic Stage Company through December 21st. It stars Scott Bakula as the baker alongside Ariana DeBose, who joins me in studio now. It is so nice to see you again.

Ariana DeBose: It's nice to see you, too. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: At this point in your career, how do you decide what you're going to do next?

Ariana DeBose: Oh, that's a great question. I go where my energy feels called. I realized earlier this year that I was missing being on stage in the context of a show. I've had the opportunity to host the Tonys. I've done different types of theatrical things, but I haven't gone back to my roots in the theater. When this opportunity came to me, and it's not every day that Stephen Schwartz sends an email that's like, "Hello, dear Ariana, I'm a fan. I think it would be great if you played Geneviève Castagne in my show, The Baker’s Wife." Then I'm like, "Oh, yes, that'd be really, really nice, sir."

Alison Stewart: "Is this spam?"

Ariana DeBose: "Is this spam?" Immediately, "Am I being punked?" I was really thrilled at the opportunity. The more that I dug into the piece, and I was very aware of Meadowlark, which I think is arguably the most famous song from the show. Many vocalists have sung it throughout time, or at least the time of its inception. I remember when I wasn't in college, I didn't go for the record. When I was on tour with Bring It On: The Musical-- Yes, it was a cheerleading musical. I created my own curriculum of study to combat not having gotten a degree for what I was now doing.

I discovered Stephen Schwartz through finding a recording of Meadowlark sung by Patti LuPone, because I had read her autobiography. Which, by the way, great read, fascinating read. That was my intro into Stephen Schwartz. Then, after discovering Meadowlark, I discovered-- I knew Wicked, but I had never seen a production. Okay, musical theater lovers, don't kill me for saying that.

Alison Stewart: It's okay, you're learning, you're learning.

Ariana DeBose: I was learning, and I just thought, "What a brilliant show for right now." I look at it like a fable, and I think fables teach us beautiful lessons. We have themes of community, romance, asks us to challenge our own unconscious bias, in a way. It's all very tangible and inviting. I was very excited to get the opportunity to work at Classic Stage. I love that it's a nonprofit with educational programs, and I love that we're in the round.

Alison Stewart: It's really interesting because the audience is on all sides. The play starts before the play starts. For anybody who wants to see, I took pictures, and they're on our Instagram @AllOfItWNYC, so they can understand what we're talking about. What do you like about performing in that intimate a space?

Ariana DeBose: Oh, well, I thrive in spaces like that. I like to be able to really feel my audience. I'm an energy person. I'm one of those y’all. It's fun. I can really feel where the audience is. That's the thing I love about theater. It makes it a sacred space because it's a communion, being able to feel each other's energy together and go on that journey. I also like that you're right there. We could sit on your lap. It makes the audience, which is-- the audience is always the last character that you add to a show. In this case, our audiences are very active within our show.

That, I think, is fun, because it keeps you honest as an actress. Like, "I know if I have you, and I know if I've lost you or if you're confused." I don’t change my performance to necessarily accommodate, but I like that it holds me accountable to staying present.

Alison Stewart: Do you ever watch the audience participate before the show starts?

Ariana DeBose: I do. I'm not going to tell you where, but I do. I like that. I like being able to see who I'm playing, too.

Alison Stewart: When we first meet Geneviève, how is she feeling about her marriage?

Ariana DeBose: I think when you first meet Geneviève Castagne, she's turned over a new leaf. She's made a choice. She said yes to this very good man. It's like you know what? I'm at a place in my life where I want to start over. I want to build something of my own that is truly mine. Maybe we look like the odd couple, but we're good for each other. We're good to each other. I think you're meeting someone who has not always had it easy, and kindness is very much a value to her.

Being able to start fresh in a town where nobody knows her, no one judges her, is exciting to her. Now, whether or not they're judging her, she has no control over that. You come to find out this lovely, lovely town has a beautiful cast of characters, and everybody's got their stuff. Doesn't it sound like the world we live in?

Alison Stewart: Exactly. It's interesting. In the play, she won’t say "I love you" to her husband, and he doesn't seem to mind terribly.

Ariana DeBose: Right. I think there are different definitions of love, or discovering what love truly means. I think what is maybe not the conundrum, but a fascinating component of this show is that her husband is much older than her, and he has more life experience, but perhaps a certain kind of life experience. I think you might be able to observe the character that you're meeting, played by the lovely Scott Bakula. He's divine.

Alison Stewart: I have to tell you, for a woman of a certain age like me, I was like, "Oh, he's cute."

Ariana DeBose: He pretty.

Alison Stewart: He's pretty.

Ariana DeBose: He's pretty. He is a very, very, very lovely man. I think you might observe that perhaps his character has lived a very specific life, perhaps a bit sheltered. He's blooming just as she is. They're meeting each other at a certain space, and I think the age gap, they're both learning what real love is. Sometimes there's-- Oh, not sometimes. There is the difference between lust and love. I think love, it's not always flowers and candlelit dinners. Sometimes love is taking out the trash or pouring a cup of coffee for the person that you're spending your life with.

Sometimes love is saying, "It's not going to be perfect, but we'll do it together." There's this beautiful journey that these two people go on. Messy but beautiful, to find a way back to each other.

Alison Stewart: I'm talking with Ariana DeBose. We're discussing her role in the Classic Stage Company's revival of the musical The Baker’s Wife. It's running through December 21st. Geneviève, you say her last name.

Ariana DeBose: Castagne.

Alison Stewart: You have a French accent.

Ariana DeBose: I do.

Alison Stewart: In this play.

Ariana DeBose: In this play, I do. I will say it's a funny conceit because we establish through our sense and our sound design that we are in 1937 France. I love accents. I love-- I just do. I also don't want them to be distracting either. I try to take great care to not let it be something that pulls your ear so much that you don't hear what I'm saying.

Alison Stewart: I was going to ask you, what's the balance between a French accent and being Pepe Le Pew? Make a choice.

Ariana DeBose: It's tough. It's funny because some of my lines, for example, Geneviève says she's tired, and I just want to be like, "Ugh, but I'm tired." [laughs] We are in a musical rooted in truth, albeit a fable. This is definitely not overtly heightened. It's a thin line to walk. I think I try, and I know my cast does, to let the accents inform the world but not distract from the truth.

Alison Stewart: You get to use your skills as a dancer in the show.

Ariana DeBose: I do. Which is a surprise.

Alison Stewart: Was it originally in the script? Is it something you came to-

Ariana DeBose: No.

Alison Stewart: -going to the role?

Ariana DeBose: I love that question. I do dance in the show. No, that is a new addition to this production, to our show. It was not originally there. It is based off of the fact that I do possess this talent. It's nice because in the initial productions of this show, Geneviève makes this very important choice. Then you don't see her for quite a while. Our director, Gordon Greenberg, and Stephanie Clemens, our choreographer, came together and were like, "What if?" Stephen Schwartz was like, "This is a great idea. Let's do this." I was like, "Thank you. Thank you for giving me something else to do in the show. I love that."

I also think the storytelling, or perhaps more importantly, the storytelling of what this dance moment is pushing forward within our plot, is very important, too.

Alison Stewart: Would you explain that for people?

Ariana DeBose: Sure. This moment in the show, you-- Oh, man, I feel like I'm giving away plot points. That's so hard.

Alison Stewart: What's she trying to express?

Ariana DeBose: She's trying to express that you're so good at this. You really are a brilliant conversationalist. She's trying to express-- actually, it's more of a dream sequence. It's not really her expression. Technically, it is a vision that Aimable, Scott Bakula's character, is having. It's what he is seeing in his head, albeit it is a reflection of probably what is really happening in the world. You see Aimable envision her, but it's really the other guy that comes and gets her. There's this beautiful dance sequence about love and lust, but it really is beautiful and kid-appropriate.

Alison Stewart: You've used the word "our show". The show really is about community.

Ariana DeBose: It is.

Alison Stewart: The show itself. It also sounds like it is within the realm of the people who are involved in it.

Ariana DeBose: Oh, absolutely. Our show is-- we have the most incredible cast. It's stacked. Judy Kuhn-

Alison Stewart: She's great.

Ariana DeBose: -Bob Cuccioli, Arnie, Nathan, it's crazy. Nathan Lee Graham. It's bananas how many theatrical legends. Alma Cuervo, she is a Hispanic legend. Oh my God, I can't believe how many people said yes to coming to do this show downtown at a not-for-profit theater. It's really, really beautiful. We function very much like a tight-knit family, too, by virtue of our surroundings, but also, we like each other, which is great.

Our creatives have been so supportive, and our stage management team, we're all in this small space making art. It's really lovely to see people come together for a common goal, which is to make this show the best that it can be. We're real people with real lives, and getting to know this particular cast and crew has been a real privilege.

Alison Stewart: As you're thinking about the show, the show is about community as well. What do you think the show has to say about getting along with your neighbors?

Ariana DeBose: It's funny, I was thinking about in any place I've lived in New York City, have I met my neighbors? First of all.

Alison Stewart: Have you?

Ariana DeBose: Half and half. Where I live now, I've met more of my neighbors than potentially anywhere else I've lived, except for the time that I lived with my mentors. For a minute, I knew my neighbors. I was living on their couch. Thanks, y’all. That was many, many years ago. I don't know that sometimes you meet your neighbors, you don't immediately like them, but you have to find a way to live with each other in common space. It's fascinating to me how we all have these misconceptions about each other. The second you meet someone, you make decisions about a person without even really knowing them. I think our show models that and the fallout of what that can be.

One of my, I guess, manifestos for acting is just like, there's a reason for absolutely everything that a character or person does. It's my job to discover the whys in there. I think our show does a really beautiful job of giving each one of these characters a fully lived life and life force and energy for the audience to get to know, to understand their whys. I think Joe Stein, the late, great Joseph Stein, wrote the book for this show, and he also wrote brilliant pieces like Fiddler on the Roof. You've got such gorgeous wit, but also gorgeous nuance. That is life. Life is inherently very humorous, but it is nuanced.

I think when it comes to community, as much as we can come together, sometimes by shortchanging our nuance, we go around our thumb to get to our elbow at times to get to the heart of who we can be. I like that by the time you reach the end of our story, all of these people really get to see each other. What a privilege to be seen. I think that's a beautiful reminder for us all during the times we live in.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about The Baker’s Wife with Ariana DeBose. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Ariana DeBose. We're discussing her role in the Classic Stage Company revival of the musical The Baker’s Wife. All right, Geneviève, first, she rejects the advances of this young man coming her way, but eventually she starts buying what he's selling a little bit. What changes in her mind?

Ariana DeBose: I think ultimately Geneviève gets caught up. I think when you start to like attention and the attention feels good, it's hard to hold your boundaries. I understand that feeling. I don't know many folks who wouldn't understand that feeling. I hope that's something people can empathize with her on. Ultimately, I think Geneviève is also, considering everything that she has potentially endured, and while we don't get a ton of her backstory, there are little things that are dropped here and there. There are nuggets within the play and within songs, like, "Oh girl, you were burned. That didn't go well for you. Yikes."

You feel sad, or your self-worth or self-confidence may be quite diminished. You're starting over. I think sometimes you find yourself in these moments where it's very easy to get caught up in someone just making you feel good about yourself. I get that. Suddenly, you make a split decision that you don't realize the full impact of, but you think it's what is good for you. You have to go on the journey. That's the thing a lot of people say, like, "Why did you do that? Scott Bakula's your husband. He's so great."

I was like, "You're right." If she hadn't gone on this journey, would she fully understand what love actually is? That's different for everybody. I think for her, she has to come to the understanding that love is not always physically fulfilling. Love is not always going to feel like cupcakes, sprinkles, roses--

Alison Stewart: Good-looking guy in bed.

Ariana DeBose: Good-looking guy in bed.

Alison Stewart: That is a strong visual in the show.

Ariana DeBose: It is a strong visual. Kevin William Paul is beautiful. He is lovely to look at, and he's also very talented. His portrayal of Dominique, I think, definitely does more than make the point. Does lust make a life? Everybody has to decide that at some point. How valuable is physicality when you're talking about love that you want to last for a lifetime, or that you think you want to last for a lifetime? What is it that you want? What do you value? How do you define that? If she hadn't made the choice that she makes towards the end of Act One, I don't know that she would have really come to understand that. As hard as it is to go on the journey with Geneviève, I think it's quite worthy.

Alison Stewart: You mentioned Meadowlark earlier. A lot of people may not even recognize the show The Baker’s Wife, but they recognize Meadowlark.

Ariana DeBose: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Why do you think that song has had a life beyond the show?

Ariana DeBose: There's just something about it. I can't really fully describe it, but there's this gorgeous melody that just takes over your senses. I always felt like there was just this real alchemy to it, and it's simple in melody and construct. It's just storytelling. Telling you the story of this meadowlark who is blind and saved by this king. Then suddenly this sun god hears her sing and gives her the gift of sight, and he's like, "Come fly with me." She's like, "No, but I'm loyal." Then she stays. It's like, come see the show and hear me sing it, and it'll really land for you. There's something so beautiful about a song that just simply tells a story with a beautiful melody. If it's that good, it lasts the test of time.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about Stephen Schwartz's melodies. He's got a big year. He's got Queen of Versailles-

Ariana DeBose: Yes, he does.

Alison Stewart: -going to come on Broadway, of course, Wicked.

Ariana DeBose: Wicked, Part Two, For Good. Go see it.

Alison Stewart: What do you appreciate about his music and his lyrics?

Ariana DeBose: I find them to be not only-- I find his lyrics actually to be very wise. Chanson is a song from The Baker’s Wife, but it's actually one of my favorite songs that he's ever written. A lot of people expect you to say, like, "Oh, my favorite Stephen Schwartz song is from Wicked," but it's actually Chanson because it's exceptionally wise, but also so relatable from the ways of-- He's writing the life that we live every day.

When you hear this song, you can imagine yourself walking through your day because art reflects life. That one I just thought was like, "Whoa, you really did that." You did that without overriding. It makes you feel-- You can literally-- I see colors, I see trees, I see my local coffee shop. Every day, as you do what you do every day, you see the same faces that fill the café. There's something so simple about that. Though none of those faces have new things to say, everything might be different.

Alison Stewart: Always.

Ariana DeBose: See what I mean?

Alison Stewart: Always. [unintelligible 00:22:58] all the time.

Ariana DeBose: I don't know. There's something about him and his ability to just write what he sees and what he knows. He is a writer that I know he's writing what he knows. He's also-- there's so much care in his melodies. When I talk about music, I talk about it from how it makes me feel. As I mentioned before, I'm very much an energy person. When I listen to music, there's an energy that fills my body. What I'm describing to you is this energy that, when I listen to a Stephen Schwartz song, I always know it's his because it's always warm. Even if it's a song about despair or something like No One Mourns the Wicked, there's a power in it that just feels like I am existing in a moment that is really happening in the world or that we've experienced, whether it's in Munchkinland or in this little town in France. I think that's a real gift that he has.

Alison Stewart: I don't know if you heard, Ariana DeBose, but Hamilton turned 10 this year.

Ariana DeBose: It did. It sure did.

Alison Stewart: You played a very significant role, the role of the Bullet. What was going on with your life-- get in the wayback machine, 10 years ago, when you booked Hamilton?

Ariana DeBose: Oh, well, I actually did a very small development, just read-sing-through of the show years before we even got to Off Broadway. I remember Chris Jackson was in the room reading George Washington. Jon Rua, who was in the ensemble with me, was reading one of the other roles. I was reading Angelica, which, by the way, my version of that sounded like Nicki Minaj. It was just not correct. Renee Goldsberry is just like goals. She's my sister from another mister. She has goals. I knew then that it was going to be something really special. Then, about a year later, it was actually the first job that I was ever just offered.

Alison Stewart: Really.

Ariana DeBose: Yes, I was doing ensemble work. I was in Pippin at the time. I was an understudy for the Leading Player, but I was in the ensemble, and I got an all-out offer to just be in the show. I just couldn't believe my luck that I was going to get to stay with it because, like I said, I knew then it was-- I was like, "I don't know what this show is going to do, but it's really special, and I would regret not being in the room." It was just to be in the ensemble. I was like, "Doesn't matter. We're going to build a whole world."

Alison Stewart: You did.

Ariana DeBose: Build a world we did. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: Can I ask you a serious question?

Ariana DeBose: Sure.

Alison Stewart: There was this big story in The New York Times a couple weeks ago talking about how difficult it is to launch a Broadway musical. It cited the statistic that none of the 18 musicals that opened on Broadway last season have turned a profit. I'm curious your thoughts on it. Are you concerned about the future of Broadway musicals? What do you think?

Ariana DeBose: That's a real question. I think a lot of things, to be honest. I think we are in a time where we all have to adapt. We are not dealing with the same financial landscape, political landscape. Honestly, demographics of audiences are changing, and we have big goals of making things more equitable, getting new theater lovers into the theater. All of those challenges are hitting at the same time. As much as I think we can create change, it only will happen if we all come to the table and start to really understand the nuance of the financial situation.

There is no change without truth. We all got to really look at those numbers. It's part of-- to be honest, part of why it took me a minute to come back to the stage. As much as I am an artist, I am a business person as well. The difference between the West End and Broadway is that our grosses are posted. You can look at them. I think some of the problems we face, they're not new. You can track them. I don't think that there are easy answers. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I know what to do, because I don't. I know that we can't do it if we look at each other as if we're all going to fight each other.

We all have to take a breath and come together to find a real path forward. That is not going to be easy. Rome was not built in a day. I do believe that we can because we were able to find a solution to being able to put on the Tony Awards during the WGA strike. I was in the middle of that.

Alison Stewart: Oh, right. That's right.

Ariana DeBose: I was in the middle of that. I continued. I held my post as the host of that show for the writerless Tonys because I knew in that moment, it felt very much like Grace Bass. Coming out of the pandemic, our community, our industry needed that show in order to be able to launch our national tours for our next round of the season to become profitable. That show was very important. I use that as an example to say, compromise can be found, and change can be made. That does not mean it's going to be easy. If we want a better future, it starts with moments like that, coming together in the face of what looks like massive adversity, but there's so much to lose. Yes, there's a lot to lose. There's a lot on the line. I have never seen change come without a sacrifice on everybody's part. You know what I mean?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Ariana DeBose: That was a long answer to simply just say, the reality is, yes, we got issues, and we need to come together to fix them. [chuckles] I don't know, you guys.

Alison Stewart: My guest has been Ariana DeBose. Go see her in the Classic Stage Company revival of The Baker’s Wife. It's running through December 21st. Thank you for coming to the studio.

Ariana DeBose: No, thank you. Girl, you are the best. You really are crazy.