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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar, in for Alison Stewart. When I say the words drag queen, what do you think of? For our guests today, drag is liberation. It's more than just putting on wigs or makeup. Drag has given them a community and their authentic selves in a world that maybe shun them away. Johnnie Ingram and Stephen Warren are the co-creators of the HBO show, We're Here. Their show centers a group of well-known drag artists as they enter small towns across America to spread the gift of drag to queer people and allies who live there.

The show is now in its fourth season, and this time four drag artists visit smaller conservative towns in Tennessee and Oklahoma, where drag is largely met with hostility. In fact, some towns are on the brink of banning them entirely, but as it is with any place in America, queer people live in these places. Finding a community is hard, so this group of drag artists induct them into their newfound drag family.

Some try putting on a wake for the first time, others learn how to walk and strut in heels, but underneath all that glitz and glamor is what makes this show special. We learn about their journey and how they navigate that journey in the face of hatred. The show's fourth season premiers tomorrow on Max, and with us today to talk about the latest season of We're Here, our executive producers, Johnnie Ingram and Stephen Warren. Hi both.

Johnnie Ingram: Hi. Thank you so much for having us.

Stephen Warren: Hi, thank you.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you here. Also, we have Sasha Velour, a phenomenal drag artist and a co-star of the show. Hi, Sasha. Welcome to All Of It.

Sasha Velour: Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm so honored.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you all here. Let's set the stage. Johnnie and Stephen, this is the fourth season. You've been all over America for this show, the West, Midwest, the Deep South, Hawaii even. I understand you wanted to change the format for this season, Johnnie, is that right?

Johnnie Ingram: That's right. This was a very unexpected turn in our political climate. I think what's really been so special about the show is the people that we meet. I think in the past we were only spending about a couple of weeks in these places. This season we really steeped ourselves in these communities in order to tell more stories and actually to connect deeper to the community and the people there. We expanded one hour into three and we go to two places instead of six. It was important to share some of the hostility that is happening across the country, but also a lot of love and we can't wait for everyone to watch and to see.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, that love definitely comes through. Stephen, when was the moment that you thought, "Oh, the format of this needs to change for season four."

Stephen Warren: We're living in a world that's really radically changed since five years ago when we first created the show. When we were putting together this season, we realized there is so much hate that is being promulgated throughout the country by religious extremists, by political extremists, and we realized this is an urgent season. If we don't get the message out that at the base, all of us are the same. Everyone is the same. It's human connection is the thing that matters, and that's what our show is all about.

We realized what are we going to do in the face of this incredible resistance that's going on. We're going to delve deeper, we're going to tell richer stories, and we brought a new family of drag queens into the equation, and here we have Sasha, which Sasha is just one of the greatest artists of all time.

Kousha Navidar: I want to bring Sasha into this. Sasha, when you got the call to join the cast this season, what was your immediate reaction?

Sasha Velour: I was so excited. The first call I got was from Bob the Drag Queen, who's one of the previous hosts who did such amazing work bringing people into this world of drag. I nearly lost my mind. I've been dreaming of being part of a show like this because I started doing drag in a small town, my hometown of Champaign Urbana, Illinois.

We really do have queer life and resilience and existence in every single place. Drag isn't something you just see on TV, it's here in the world. This show highlights that and brings it even more to the forefront.

Kousha Navidar: You mentioned towns across America. Let's talk about the town that you all spend some time in. Murfreesboro, Tennessee, it's a small town of about 160,000 people. The town essentially banned a Pride event from happening that year, and we meet some folks and allies that are reeling from the loss. Johnnie, what made this town the right place to film three episodes this season?

Johnnie Ingram: Well, I'm from Tennessee and so it's hit really close to home. In particular, having left Tennessee to live my authentic self, I always like to think we've met a lot of amazing queer folks and people in larger cities that I ended up living in Chicago, Toronto, New York, and now LA. What I feel was missing from these smaller towns are the people that have left, the queer people that have left.

To be able to bring back some of the amazing, not only drag artists that we've met, but queer folks and part of our cast and crew back to these spaces was incredibly important. In particular, Murfreesboro is a hotbed for some extraordinarily vague laws and ordinances in the city that it makes it really difficult to exist as any member of the LGBTQ community, but they really are trying to push LGBTQ people back into their homes and back into the closet.

In this particular indecency clause that was really targeted at, I think trans and drag folks and canceling Pride based on a character we meet there, which is actually Sasha's extraordinary drag kid in this town, really exposes the absurdity of these ordinances. I think it's really important that Sasha, in particular, bringing her intellect and just amazing graceful personality to expose these ordinances that are just so vague and meant to oppress. I think it's important to we expose that so people understand that these shouldn't exist. I think that was really why we went to Murfreesboro.

Stephen Warren: No one wants to call themselves a fascist. No one wants to say we're passing fascistic laws. The fact is Murfreesboro, it did pass a fascistic ordinance because that is how when something is passed that's so vague, that's intended to scare people from going out in public because you don't know, "Is it okay to wear nails in public? Is it okay to wear a wig in public?" If you don't know if you're going to be arrested, that is terrifying. That's what Murfreesboro did and that is how fascism is bred.

Kousha Navidar: Sasha, I'm wondering how it felt for you landing in a town that you said has some similarities to the one that you grew up in. How was it for you getting there?

Sasha Velour: It brought me back to moments in my life where I was always on guard. I think that is normal life for a lot of queer people that you find safe spaces, close friends, or maybe that drag bar, that one tiny gay hangout in town where you can be your full self and the rest of the time you're always looking around you because homophobic hate and violence is all around the threat of losing your job for being out is always lingering.

I think a lot of queer people learn how to code shift and hide parts of themselves, stick with others just to survive, and those are good skills, but I wish queer people wouldn't have to learn that strength through fear. We saw it as our mission to spread the kind of safety that Stephen and Johnnie and the whole team made for us while we were filming. Because even though we were in these places, we had the support system and then we wanted to extend that to our drag children, to these people who live in these towns year round, but maybe don't have that support all the time.

Kousha Navidar: I think now is a great time to move into that experience specifically, and hey listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking about the new season of We're Here. It's a reality TV show that embraces love through the art of drag. We're here with the executive producers Stephen Warren and Johnnie Ingram and a drag artist host of the show, Sasha Velour. The fourth season premiers tomorrow on Max.

If we could, I'd love to talk about Norm, because we've been referring a little bit during the conversation. I think now is a wonderful time to talk about this character, this person in the show. He's an openly gay man who actually ran for county mayor. He's also a drag queen and he feels like he lost something because of what happened at a drag show. We'd like to play a clip of him reeling from the event. Sasha, before we play that clip, can you help us set up what happened to Norm at this drag event that we're talking about?

Sasha Velour: Yes, this was Murfreesboro-- Murf-- Murfreesboro-- Murfee-- I can't say this town name. Their Pride event from two years ago and Veronica Paige, also known as Norman Hanks is the queen of the town. She was performing at this Pride event and her false breast slipped down her dress, which is a common-- not ideal drag experience, but a common and a silly one and she made just an offhand comment about it, "Oh, I'm losing my tits." A video of this went viral on conservative social media and led the town to cancel the Pride event.

The Pride organizers, in response to this, began to discuss banning all drag from any future Pride events. My beautiful drag daughter, this hero in this town, Veronica, began to feel guilty for ruining Pride for the community, which she should feel responsible for uplifting so many people. Instead, because of all this hate, she was feeling just the opposite.

Kousha Navidar: Let's listen to that clip of Norman discussing the event.

Veronica Paige: It was horrifying. At that point, I was still running for an elected position in the county.

Kuosha Navidar: That's right, running for?

Veronica Paige: County mayor.

Kuosha Navidar: For county mayor?

Veronica Paige: Right. I had already had someone shoot a bullet through my house for being a gay drag queen running for office. This is where it came in. It came in over here behind my lamp.

Kuosha Navidar: Whoa.

Veronica Paige: Right here and it hit here and it went through the lamp across-

Kuosha Navidar: Oh my god.

Veronica Paige: -to that wall-

Kuosha Navidar: Whoa.

Veronica Paige: -where it ricocheted again over here and then rolled into the hallway. We did call the police and have them come out.

Kuosha Navidar: Did they find out who did it?

Veronica Paige: Oh God, no. No, no. They told me that it was a misfire, it was a random bullet, and that it wasn't intentional. If it had been intentional, there would've been a spray of bullets across the front of my house. After that happened, I would drive different routes every day.

Kuosha Navidar: Did you have any idea something like that was a risk?

Veronica Paige: I didn't, I didn't think that that was something that would happen, but that's the naivete of myself, I guess, is I believe the best in everyone.

Kuosha Navidar: Has it wavered down at all?

Veronica Paige: Yes. I don't trust as easily as I once did.

Kousha Navidar: Sasha, as Norm's drag mentor, how did you want to build his confidence?

Sasha Velour: I wanted to reflect what strength I saw in Norm. I think that was our job as drag mothers. It's not to teach someone how to do drag. It's to use this amazing spotlight, this platform of a drag show where you have a crowd cheering you on and use that to help illuminate what is already inside of these queer people, these allies. They are all already doing everything that drag is about in the community, being visible, spreading love, preaching a message of freedom for all people. All I really had to do was hold a mirror up to Norm and say, "You look like a hero to me. You embody everything that drag is."

It had been so long since she had felt that kind of confidence. We were there for a month. Slowly during that time, I got to see this life and this joy and this brassy comedy come back to Norm. All of his friends and family were saying, "Because of this experience, we have our Norm back." Even the smallest things, just giving someone an opportunity, telling them they don't need to be ashamed anymore, can do all that.

Kousha Navidar: Norm's story also makes me think about safety, which we've mentioned earlier in the conversation. This season we see you confront a lot of hate. There are protesters, homophobic and transphobic hecklers. Johnnie, I'm interested as producers, and Stephen, I love your take on this as well. How did you want to ensure safety for the cast and everyone involved?

Johnnie Ingram: In this season, and even expanding the format, we always have had safety. We have the safety of our crew, but we also have security and HBO has been very generous in making sure that we are very well protected. We do work with local security organizations to make sure everyone feels safe and is safe because this is very important to us. Not to mention, we also have a really great staff that's always on lookout for any unusual activity. What we're really are, we get to come in with a safety of cameras and crew. We're not there. We don't live there full time, but I think it's really important that we are able to bring that safety and to film these stories in a place where that's not normal. That they don't really have those protections on a daily basis.

I think that having that, the safety of the cameras is really a thing to expose how unsafe it really truly is until these stories is a superpower we have and that we can bring there. When we leave, it's important too that we leave the community with resources. I think we often start with the casting with local LGBTQ organizations because we want to make sure that there are local resources there for the folks that we do leave behind. We also offer therapy for any people that are sharing their trauma on screen and going through this process. Tt's important that there's aftercare for our contributors as well.

Stephen Warren: We've realized that the great majority of the hate is online and that these people who are online, they may be actually very few in number, but that is where the most venomous and the most scary threats come from. That physically being present in these places, we have security and that there were very few times when we actually felt insecure. If you read online, you would think it's a different story.

Kousha Navidar: Despite these threats to safety, you and your co-stars successfully throw a drag show with your drag daughters, including Norm. I want to play a clip of Sasha, your co-star, Jaida Essence Hall, and Norm, putting up flyers for the drag event you decide to organize in town. Let's take a listen.

Sasha Velour: We need to hang these up around town because we decided to make it open to anyone who wants to come.

Jaida Essence Hall: We're going to make an open call with an open stage and reach out to whoever is willing to come.

Veronica Paige: Getting people to leave their houses and come out and try to bring them together is not a thing. Lord have mercy. There's still that underlying fear that's always there, because it's just not safe all the time so you don't take the chance. We could put it in people's windshield.

Jaida Essence Hall: All the people who maybe have wanted to try drag, the drag queens, the drag kings have a safe place to come to.

Sasha Velour: Do you think you could take things to the poll?

Veronica Paige: It'll just be a little, what's the word?

Jaida Essence Hall: Torn down.

[laughter]

Veronica Paige: Yes.

Sasha Velour: Want to push the boundaries a little and test how many people are willing to show up.

Jaida Essence Hall: There we go.

Veronica Paige: They're going to love [unintelligible 00:17:44].

Jaida Essence Hall: Got in.

Kousha Navidar: I'm interested in what you said at the end of that clip, Sasha, you want to test out if people will show up. Did you ever feel anxious that you were going to get no one to come or even get some angry folks to join?

Sasha Velour: [chuckles] Every single time. We expected no one to be there actually, because that's how Norm saw the community as fundamentally not willing to show up for each other. When we had people-- this slight spoiler, but people spilling out, lining up around the block, coming out to see, not even us as these out of town drag queens, but they wanted to do drag themselves. They wanted to support their friends trying drag for the first time. That's the power of this show. Like a tangible thing you can do that brings people together in a spirit of love and freedom.

I think I've seen Norm, we're just texting right now, but he's continuing to go more out on a limb and push back and continue to test these boundaries. Life is too short to wonder what could be possible. You have to try it.

Kousha Navidar: I think that goes two ways too because it's applicable to everyone. The basic premise of the show is that you, as a drag artist, provide support for those who might need to find a voice, find confidence, live more authentically, but also imagine that working with these drag daughters helped you and your work as a drag artist maybe?

Sasha Velour: Absolutely. Because drag is about protest in some level. Just having visibility, existing in such a bold, undeniably queer way is a protest in this world that wants us to be hidden and wants us to be silent so often. Even though we have so much support out there, a lot of us still experience fear and self-doubt. To see what a difference a simple drag show can make, reminds all of us why we have to never stop. Why we can't give up.

Kousha Navidar: As we were talking, this is a live show, so we get texts and we have been getting texts about this. There's one that I want to read which I think is really cool. It says, "We're Here is a masterpiece and I can't wait for it to come back. I am the Mayor of Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey and would love to have the opportunity to host the show in our welcoming town." Johnnie, I'm wondering, when you hear that, what's the reaction that you think?

Johnnie Ingram: I'm tearing up. It really means to be able to create the show in this time and to celebrate these stories, and these unsung heroes in a time when oppression is just everywhere. You see these headlines. It's so hard to put human beings behind the people that are directly affected by this and to present them in such a loving, thoughtful, careful way and put them in the hands of Sasha Velour to bring out and let them celebrate that inner drag queen or fantasy in a time when people don't want us to celebrate. It's so unbelievable.

History is repeating itself, but I'm hopeful that telling these stories, and it's impacting real people across the country, it means so much. It really truly is bringing me to tears.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. I just got to give a shout out to the mayor of Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey for sending that out. Stephen, you think about Season 4 having completed, what is an element of it that you want to expand on? How are you thinking about what's next for the series?

Stephen Warren: There's so many different things that we want to explore. There are so many people like that mayor who would love to have us come. We would love to take this internationally. We would love to go to Poland. We would love to go across the world, to different places to show what it's like to be queer in foreign countries, in small towns in foreign countries. We would love to go, honestly, to one place and park ourselves there for two or three months, and just become so integrated into a community and we have to choose the right place, but that we can literally become invested in that community and vice versa.

Johnnie Ingram: Yes, the more time we saw, especially this season in this new format, and we truly were being in one place for much longer, we noticed actual change and were able to document that. I think when we were there, if it's a much shorter period of time, it was so fleeting and fun. We had a great time, we were also in a very different political climate, but we have noticed the impact. I actually feel like Norm and our drag contributors that we meet truly do. We're connected. We have Jess from Oklahoma, who actually just came to our screening last night, who is a trans woman, just entering her new identity and Sasha was also her drag mother.

It was just so wonderful seeing her thrive and shine and also to share this moment with her in celebrating the season beginning tomorrow. [chuckles]

Kousha Navidar: Stephen, can you quickly just say, we're wrapping up about 20 seconds left here, just how has Murfreesboro changed now and how is Norm doing now?

Stephen Warren: Norm is thriving. Norm is doing so well. We saw him at the SCAD festival in Atlanta. He looks great. He's performing. He has a new sense of energy, and that Murfreesboro, thankfully, last had to settle with the ACLU, had to pay $500,000 and is hopefully not going to hate on gay people and queer people and drag in the future.

Kousha Navidar: Well, if you want to see these stories, be sure to check out the new season of We're Here. It's a reality TV show about embracing love through the art of drag. We've been lucky to be joined by executive producers Stephen Warren and Johnnie Ingram and drag artist Sasha Velour. The fourth season premieres tomorrow on Max. Thank you all so much.

Johnnie Ingram: Thank you.

Stephen Warren: Thank you.

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