Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. A new documentary takes an important look at media, the judgment of women's bodies, and the influence of people who had power. Starting in 2003, millions of viewers tuned in each week to hear these words.

Speaker: Still in the running to become America's next top model.

Speaker: Still in the running towards becoming America's--

Speaker: Still in the running to become America's--

Speaker: Still in the running to become America's--

Alison Stewart: America's Next Top Model, executive produced and hosted by Tyra Banks, was a reality television competition series that started as a behind-the-scenes look at what it was like to work in fashion. Banks said she had hoped to show inclusivity in a cutthroat industry. Here's Tyra reflecting on the response the show has received in revisiting the years.

Tyra Banks: COVID hit, and the world was binging TV.

Reporter: An Oklahoma man who goes by the name Joe Exotic--

Tyra Banks: Started to binge Top Model. It got so big.

Speaker: My OG.

Speaker: My favorite things ever.

Speaker: Love, love, love that show.

Tyra Banks: It brought so much joy to so many people.

Speaker: These are my favorite America's Next Top Models and where they are now.

Tyra Banks: So much anger.

Speaker: Tyra Banks should have been called out years ago.

[crosstalk]

Alison Stewart: As NPR critic Aisha Harris noted, "The docu series ultimately leaves us with a truth born out time and again. Progress isn't linear. Of course, it's foolish to think one woman alone has the power to undo decades of deeply ingrained gatekeeping through a hit TV show." The show has really touched a nerve with people, especially those who are now in their 40s and were teenagers when it came out, and they were influenced. The good, it had a diverse cast. The bad, such as highlighting disordered eating. Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model is streaming on Netflix. Director Mor Loushy and Daniel Sivan are here with me to discuss. Thank you for joining us.

Daniel Sivan: Thanks for having us.

Mor Loushy: Thank you for having us.

Alison Stewart: Hey, we'd like to hear from you, listeners. What did you remember? What did you think when America's Next Top Model first aired? What were your perceptions of models in the fashion industry? How did the show challenge ideas of beauty in the 2000s? What are aspects of the show you've grown a bit more critical of? Give us a call or text us at 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Mor and Daniel, for the last 20 years, the two of you have become known for working on political and historical documentaries such as Camp Confidential, America's Secret Nazis, and The Oslo Diaries. Mor, what was interesting to you in revisiting this reality competition series, America's Next Top Model?

Mor Loushy: Of course, we all grew up on this show. I'm 43, so I still remember vividly each season and how it evolved and how it reflected as me as a young woman and a person that grew up in those years. When the production companies approached us, we thought, "Okay, wow, this is great because it will allow us to really tell the story." When we understood that the access was so great, the judges were already on board and many of the models, we said, this is a real opportunity to really look into the story, beginning to end, and really take a deep look at what things happen, what was behind the scenes really, and how we can even reflect about that in our generation, in the next generation. For us, it was just an amazing opportunity to really take a deep look about our past that in many ways is our present today.

Alison Stewart: Daniel, this documentary is everywhere. People are commenting everywhere. Are you surprised at the reaction that this documentary has received?

Daniel Sivan: We knew it will receive attention. The show meant a lot for a lot of people, and also shattering its image is something painful for a lot of people to watch and revisit. Honestly, we were surprised. It became much bigger than anyone expected.

Alison Stewart: Mor, Tyra Banks did not produce this documentary. You work like filmmakers. You use a non-judgmental lens when you're looking at a subject. How did you get Tyra to sit down with you and to give you so much time when you were going to ask her some pretty hard questions?

Mor Loushy: First of all, the production company really did an amazing work. I think that when we reached out to Tyra, it was already in the middle of the making of the series. We already had the interviews with most of the models and with most of the judges. We reached out to her, and we told her this is really-- "You can decide yes or not, this is happening with or without you. We would definitely love to hear your story," because me and Daniel were both genuinely curious in her story. It was a different era and she broke so many ceilings, and she really did have, I think, amazing intentions at the beginning.

We really wanted to-- I was curious, genuinely curious when she sat down for this interview. I hope that she felt that I'm curious to hear her comments. How did this even idea came about, and how did she start, and how did it felt? Not only the controversial things, but also the root story about the show. She answered all the questions, even the hard ones. We asked everything. I think she came ready. I think that it's been a long time coming. COVID era, Tyra also says everybody rewatched it, everybody talked about it.

I think it was time for everyone for open this conversation. I think that part of the success of the show is that people were thirsty for it. It led the grounds of so many things that are today in our pop culture. Image, beauty, weight. These are all essential subjects to us today as a society, as women. It's still a very big deal. I think that some of the things that happen in the show are very wrong then and are very wrong today. Tyra sitting down to answer the questions was, I think, important thing.

Alison Stewart: Daniel, what was your understanding of what Tyra Banks tried to accomplish with the making of America's Next Top Model in the early days?

Daniel Sivan: I don't feel comfortable narrating Tyra, but I can tell you that what I found fascinating about this show is it really brought to light so many different people and persons than American television back then had. You had people from the LGBTQ+ community which were not running gags. They were not a joke like you would see them back then on a lot of American sitcoms, but they were actually the bosses judging fashion, talking about beauty concepts without having to apologize, downsize, or mediate their sexual orientation or how they define themselves.

You had Miss J, which presented a world of different pronouns that today we are only now coming to terms with. That was radical back then in the early 2000s. You had a woman of color, which was hosting a show not as a contender, but as an executive producer, as somebody that is calling the shots. She doesn't have a man above her. It's not Survivors or Amazing Race. She is a host, and she is a boss. Obviously, you have so many different types of beauty back then, which different ethnicities, different body types. It really started as something beautiful, and it evolved into something pretty ugly. The genesis of it, I think, came from a lot of good intentions.

Alison Stewart: We got a text that says, "I was a viewer of ANTM back in the day, so I decided to check out the documentary. After one episode, I was sucked in and binge-watched the whole series at three in the morning." Shocking. We're talking about a new documentary, America's Next Top Model, which explores the show's legacy in fashion and popular culture 20 years since it first aired. Directors Mor Loushy and Daniel Sivan are here with me to discuss their new three-part series, Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model.

We'd like to hear from you what you remember about when America's Next Top Model first aired. What did you think of the show? Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, or you can tell us about the three-part series Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model as well. Mor, Tyra Banks is the architect of the series when it begins with TV producer Ken Mok and Black-ish creator Kenya Barris. However, networks really didn't go for it at first. What concepts that gave the networks pause when they first heard of America's Next Top Model?

Mor Loushy: It's surprising, right, to think that she got so many no's. It's really surprising. I remember both she and Ken told the story, and the judges, and it's surprising that they didn't see the potential. I think that back at the day, it was really the beginning of the era of reality. People didn't understand the concept of behind the scenes. What is interesting in seeing the everyday life of a model, to see not only the success, not only the glossy page on a magazine, but to really see what they have to go through to get there.

She was one of the first people to think about that concept. Obviously, it was The Real World and others, but it was really the beginning of this era. I think that you see in the first season that everything is so raw. Although also in the first season, there are moments that I now needed-- before we started working on the show, I rewatched 24 seasons. I watched every episode in those 24 seasons. There's some things that I watch now even in the first season, women are doing wax in front of the camera, and things that you're like, "Whoa."

I think that the first season was very raw. It was still searching itself and slowly, slowly, slowly it became more bullying at the models and let's make great television and let's see where we can get, and is it television or is it a model contest?

Alison Stewart: Recently, our colleague, NYC Now host Janae Pierre, sat down with Ebony Haith. At the time of the shooting, at the time of the show, she was a 24-year-old woman from Harlem and one of four Black women in that first cycle of the show. Let's listen to a clip from that interview. She talks about how poorly the show has aged and the cultural differences that affected her.

Ebony Haith: I think for the time at 2003 wasn't acceptable. I think that's one of the things people are battling right now. We're revisiting the show, and I think it's two different generations with two different opinions.

Janae Pierre: Absolutely.

Ebony Haith: When I tell you, 23 years later, I don't feel forgotten at all. It is an everyday thing on the train, the bus, it's constant conversation.

Janae Pierre: Because you look the same.

Ebony Haith: Thank you so much. I also love that it's infusing the conversation that we are having right now. When I think about being on America's Top Model 23 years ago and today, the big conversation is, did we know better? That is very important. For me, there is no it was 10 years ago, it was 20. That's ridiculous. We were conscious in 2000.

Alison Stewart: Daniel, what do you think about that fact? Were they conscious when the show first started?

Daniel Sivan: I believe so. I think people-- When you see stuff that's wrong, it's wrong. Seeing any person being humiliated is absolutely wrong. It was wrong back then, it is wrong now. When you look at the show, and you see women being objectified, I think that was the appeal of the show. People wanted to see beautiful women being humiliated on prime time. It's not a concept that we developed in recent years. I think everybody knew it's wrong, but it was acceptable at the time, and now it's less acceptable. We criticize it. Back then, it was, "Oh yes, obviously this is wrong, but it makes for great TV," which is a very poor excuse.

Alison Stewart: This text says, "Tyra, victim? Part of the problem? Complicated. I know, but she did not help." What do you make of that comment, Mor?

Mor Loushy: I think, obviously, it's complicated, and it was really important for us to see the complexity of it. For me, there are things that are not complicated. Like Shandi's story, for example. For me, it's not complicated. For me, it's a red line that was crossed, and that's it. To me, there's many things that were red line, and I'm really sorry that nobody stopped it.

Alison Stewart: Yes, Shandi, for people who don't know, had a harrowing experience where she blacked out, and she woke up with a man on top of her. Just-- We'll leave it there.

Mor Loushy: Yes, but I think, like Daniel said before, Tyra, it was complicated because on the one hand, she really broke all the ceilings and she really gave opportunities to things that you couldn't watch on television these days, like gender fluid. She brought also really great discourse, but she also coined stereotypes. Obviously, she's not the only problem. She's not the only one to blame. That would be-- Obviously, it's more complicated. I also think that what happened there, it's really reflective of us as a society then. I'm even seeing it now on TikTok, on Instagram, of what is the right body image, of what is beauty, of who has the right-- We're surrounded by it every day.

I really hope that with the documentary, the conversation and the discourse wouldn't be only about the small-- only America's Next Top Model, but it would be a more broad discussion about how are we making us better as a better society? How are we raising our kids? My girl in a world that will accept her as who she is, with any beauty or any weight or any diversity. I really hope that, at the end, that would be the message, the discourse that we can have.

Alison Stewart: This is an interesting text. It says, "I remember talking about the show at the time with colleagues at work and how it was like a train wreck you couldn't look away from. I wanted it to be a good opportunity for the young women involved, but usually ended up feeling bad for them. Loved Miss J, but hated how painful it was to see these girls put in this terrible catch-22 situations." Daniel, do you agree with that?

Daniel Sivan: Definitely. [laughs] I have nothing to add. It was perfect. Yes, you watch it, and it's captivating, and it's fun, and you are drawn into the narrative, and you are rooting for them. Yes, you are complicit in them going through a very painful journey. Yes, it is problematic. We look at it right now, even at this documentary. Half of the appeal of the documentary is we can present in this documentary radical, radical things that happened. If they were only nice and creating a nice environment and a constructive educational environment for these models, they wouldn't have any ratings back then, and I don't think anybody would watch the documentary that we did right now.

Alison Stewart: That's interesting.

Daniel Sivan: We are all watching these girls going-- girls, women, going through hell. I really, really hope that it won't only raise debate as for reality TV show from 20 years ago, but as for reality TV shows today and for challenges that you can see now on TikTok. Obviously, now we are much more educated and enlightened, and we know how to use the right lingo. Do we really treat people on television with respect, or do we still enjoy watching them fall down? That's a big conversation we should all have.

Alison Stewart: Mor, did America's Next Top Model do anything for the careers of these women?

Mor Loushy: Unfortunately, to very, very, very few. Most of them, on the contrary. Dani Evans' story, in the series, they were coined. Some had successes, but very, very few. When you look at 24 seasons, in each season, 12 or 13 girls, very, very few.

Alison Stewart: The name of the new three-part series is Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model. I've been speaking with this director Mor Loushy and Daniel Sivan. Thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate it.

Daniel Sivan: Oh, thank you so much.

Mor Loushy: Thank you for having us. Thank you for watching.

Alison Stewart: That is All Of It for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening, and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here tomorrow.