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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. In the mid-1960s, at the height of her fame, in the midst of her first marriage to Richard Burton, movie star, Elizabeth Taylor, sat down for a series of interviews with journalist, Richard Meryman. These tapes, hours and hours long, were discovered by Taylor's estate after sitting in an attic for decades. Now they're being shared with the public for the first time. Director Nanette Burstein had the task of sifting through all the tape for her new documentary, Elizabeth Taylor: The Lost Tapes. Let's take a little bit of a listen of the trailer.

Richard Meryman: Testing.

Elizabeth Taylor: Do you have your frickin' machine on?

Richard Meryman: I'm fascinated by the phenomena of Elizabeth Taylor. What do you think your image is?

Elizabeth Taylor: Completely superficial. Immoral. There's the person that my family know and the other Elizabeth Taylor, the commodity. One is flesh and blood, and one is cellophane. I was a child actress thrown into the adult world, but in my own world, I was a terrified little girl.

Richard Meryman: From an early age, your public image is that of a sex symbol.

Elizabeth Taylor: I've never thought of myself that way. I loved the possibility of acting. I was told I would never become an actress because I was so concerned was being pretty. I fought against the studios, started to make my own deals. I was quite the businesswoman. [laughs]

Richard Meryman: [laughs]

Alison Stewart: What emerges as a candidate and an insightful look into one of America's biggest movie stars, in her own words, a sex symbol who didn't see herself that way, a talented actress who was underestimated by her peers, and a woman who recognized that she had a hard time being alone, Elizabeth Taylor: The Lost Tapes premieres Saturday night at 08:00 PM on HBO and will be available to stream on Max. I'm joined now by Director Nanette Burstein. Nanette, welcome to All of It.

Nanette Burstein: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What are your memories of Elizabeth Taylor? What was your perception of her as a celebrity, as an actress? What is your favorite Elizabeth Taylor movie? Our phone lines will be open through this conversation. The number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can text to us or call us at that number, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC or you can reach out on socials @allofitwnyc. Nanette, how were these tapes discovered? How were you able to get access to them?

Nanette Burstein: Well, as you said in the beginning of this piece, it was through Richard Meryman's widow, who brought them to the estate and then brought them to my producers and myself, which is, you know, as a filmmaker, like, "Oh, my God, I just found the treasure trove." [laughs] To find a story, in which a legendary actress is speaking candidly from beyond the grave, unexpectedly landing in your lap is an amazing experience. That's how that happened.

Alison Stewart: When you listened to the tapes, what convinced you there would be a compelling documentary, aside from the "Oh, wow" of it? What made you think this is a good story?

Nanette Burstein: I have to tell you, I actually went-- I often go into things very cynically.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Nanette Burstein: Like, "What? Is there something here? Is it her waxing on about stuff that nobody cares about?" I had a North Star, which was-- and that grew as I got to listen to the tapes and think about her as an icon of what her story was, like, "Is there enough there, that where she really talks about the things that plagued her most, which was her insecurities about being an actress, which I didn't even know existed until I heard these tapes, that she was thought of more as a sex symbol and she wanted to be respected as an actress. That was something that really upset her in life. Obviously, it would. Just the way that she was plagued by fame and what the toll that that took on her life. All of the interesting, intimate details of her marriages and the conflicts and the affairs and all of that was also in there.

Alison Stewart: Was there anything different that really flew in the face of what you thought about Elizabeth Taylor?

Nanette Burstein: Yes. All of what I just said flew in the face of what I thought about Elizabeth Taylor. Her personal thoughts and revelations were contradictory to what was the public image.

Alison Stewart: The journalist who interviews Elizabeth Taylor in these tapes is Richard Meryman. He was-- famously published The Last Interview with Marilyn Monroe. What did he intend to do with the interviews?

Nanette Burstein: He did a book, actually. He ghost-read a biography about her. During the tapes, there's many stories in which, even on tape, she says, "Oh, you can't use that. You can't use that," and I'm sure there was a lot going on that was not on tape, where there was that discussion, so the book is not amazing, and I understand because she was at the height of her career, and her fame was her albatross. Obviously, she's really worried about what she can say and the most-- and she's being so candid on these tapes. She knew she had control over these tapes, and they would never be-- well, they would never be shared until now. It was a different experience than what I'm able to do in this film, obviously.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Director Nanette Burstein. Elizabeth Taylor: The Lost Tapes premieres on HBO on August 3rd. That's at 08:00 PM. It's interesting. Sometimes, Taylor's speech is a little bit affected in the documentary. Did you get a sense that she was ever performing?

Nanette Burstein: No, I don't think so. There were-- this happened over the course of a year, and it happened in her house, it happened in nightclubs, it happened on her houseboat, it happened in so many different locations. She did, and I put it in the film to make a point of it, she's like, "Is the tape still running?" It's not like she's unaware of the fact she's being recorded, but, no, I think she felt very free to be herself, truly.

Alison Stewart: How many hours of tape did you listen to?

Nanette Burstein: There's 40 hours.

Alison Stewart: 40 hours. Did you check, I'm curious if you checked any presentation of ideas against the truth. For example, if I said, "Oh, that was a little mishap," but it was actually a 15-car pileup, did you check her presentation of ideas?

Nanette Burstein: Oh, of course, I always fact-check things. Yes.

Alison Stewart: What did you do when you ran into something that was a little unsure, you were unsure about it? Didn't use it, I guess. [chuckles]

Nanette Burstein: Yes, yes, of course. Yes. That that comes up in other films more oftenly than this one, but yes.

Alison Stewart: We're asking our listeners to call in. We want to know what your memories of Elizabeth Taylor are. What was your perception of her as a celebrity, as an actress? What's your favorite Elizabeth Taylor movie? Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-- You can call us or you can text us at that number, or you can reach out on social media @allofitwnyc. We've got a text. "Suddenly, Last Summer, brave, powerful. Love Liz for her pioneering AIDS activism and hanging out in LA gay bars." We'll get to that. That's in the film.

Nanette Burstein: [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: Let's roll back, Nanette, to the beginning. Elizabeth Taylor started first appearing in movies when she was 10, 11 years old. Was this her idea of acting, or was it her parents' idea?

Nanette Burstein: Well, that's a good question. According to her, in these tapes, it was her idea. She loved the possibility of acting and then the actual experience of it when she was a kid. She loved the make-believe. There have been people that-- Her mother was a stage mom. She certainly helped manage Elizabeth's career. She had been an actress herself when she was younger, but, according to Elizabeth, in these tapes, it was absolutely her idea, and she loved it. That said, as she started to grow up in this world, as a teenager, it was really hard. She didn't get to go to school. There was a tutor on set, but that's not-- they shoehorn it in between takes. She didn't have friends her age. She was often, as a teenager, playing adult women, in which she had no idea what that experience was like in real life, so it was complicated, but, yes, it was her idea to begin with.

Alison Stewart: A lot of child stars end up being sexualized at a very young age, Brooke Shields has talked about this, and all of the conversations around Elizabeth Taylor seem to be about how beautiful she was as a little girl. Do you think she was sexualized as a young woman?

Nanette Burstein: Oh, there's no question. I put that in my film. They do these trailers of her, which are so-- like would not be okay today. You watch them now; they're in the film, you're like, "Oh, my God, really? Do you really doing this?" Absolutely. She was, at the age of 14, 15, playing parts in these movies and in these trailers where she is discussed as this very sexually attractive adult woman when she's not an adult woman. She is playing an adult woman opposite men who are more than twice her age. Like she'll be 15 and her married partner in the film is 40.

Alison Stewart: Wow.

Nanette Burstein: I don't think that would happen-- I know for a fact that would not happen today because it's just too egregious. Yes, she definitely experienced that. At the same time, her life was completely sheltered. She didn't have real boyfriends. She had a nanny in tow 24 hours a day, so she's playing these adult roles and then her real life is completely different. That had to be very confusing for her.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about Elizabeth Taylor: The Lost Tapes. It premieres on HBO on August 3rd, at 08:00 PM. I'm speaking with its director, Nanette Burstein. After the break, we'll talk a little bit about acting, fame, and marriage. Stay with us.

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Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Director Nanette Burstein. The name of her film is Elizabeth Taylor: The Lost Tapes, featuring never-before-heard audio interviews of Taylor from the 1960s. You'll be interested in this text that we got. "When she was filming Cleopatra in Rome, she and Dick Burton took off to Monte Argentario, Italy, to continue their affair. I was at the hotel they stayed in and their tower room where they escaped when not filming. He did seem to be the best match for her but wasn't, due to lots of drinking and the like." There's a lot in that text that someone just sent us. First of all, let's talk about her relationship with fame. What did she like about it? What didn't she like?

Nanette Burstein: I don't think she liked fame at all. I think she loved being an actress, and, obviously, fame plays a part in that, and she really wanted to be respected for her acting abilities. Unfortunately for her, fame quickly became infamy, like very quickly. Her relationship to fame was an unhealthy one. Then, obviously, her affairs with Richard Burton blew things up beyond. [laughs] It was just insane, the amount of-- It was the Brangelina of the day, probably more so, and the originator of it. I do think they were very much in love, to answer that text, and I think we do in the film, in a subtle way, is that they were very much in love, but the alcoholism was toxic for both.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Here's a text, "We saw Elizabeth Taylor in Little Foxes on Broadway in the early 80s. She was wonderful." Thanks to Brad for calling in, I mean, for texting in. Let's talk to Nancy from Aberdeen, New Jersey. Hi, Nancy. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Nancy: Hi, can you hear me?

Nanette Burstein: Hi. Yes.

Alison Stewart: Hi, yes, you're on the air.

Nancy: Great. I love Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? because she's playing out of her sexy character, and I just love the whole thing between Richard Burton and her and the other two actors. Then totally opposite is BUtterfield 8 because she is playing that sexy prostitute and gorgeous with all the clothes and the pearls and how she's treated by the male character, I can't think of his name right now. They're two opposites, but she's fantastic in both. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Thank you for calling in. Yes, there's an interesting story regarding BUtterfield 8 in the film.

Nanette Burstein: There is. There is a very interesting story, and it's a little subtle in the film, but I'm so glad that you mentioned. For me, those are my two favorite films as well. In BUtterfield 8, which I really love as a movie, and I think her performance is fantastic, she hated that movie.

Alison Stewart: Wow.

Nanette Burstein: She hated it because it came off the scandal of her-- Mike Todd, who she was deeply in love with, died in a plane crash. In order to console herself, she thought that getting together with his best friend, Eddie Fisher, was the way to go. She thought that for like a second and then realized that was a mistake and then didn't know how to actually extricate herself from that situation, and he was married to Debbie Fisher, who was America's sweetheart, so it was a giant scandal. She was just the home wrecker, the whore of all time. Now she's being cast in this movie where she's playing a prostitute, and she does not want to do this movie. The studio system was in a place where they could force her to do a movie, and they did.

They're like, "You're playing this part," so she had to play that part, even though she resented the fact that her public image was, in some way, reflective of this, and not only that, they cast Eddie Fisher as her BFF who actually is in love with her, and his girlfriend, the actress they cast, looked exactly like Debbie Fisher, so they're doing a life imitate art, art imitate life situation that is humiliating for her. She is phenomenal in the movie, and the movie is really actually quite good, and she wins an Oscar for it, but she resents it entirely. There's no joy in any of this for her.

Whereas Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, there is joy. She aged up for the part, and this is what she loves to do. She's like, I don't want to look hot. I want to look old and gray and wrinkled and play some mean, complicated character, and she did. It was her best role. It was the movie that I watched, as a teenager, that most entranced me, and she's phenomenal in it.

Alison Stewart: In these tapes, she's with Burton at the time of the recording of the interview, ultimately married seven times.

Nanette Burstein: Yes. They're just starting to work on that film at that point, yes.

Alison Stewart: After listening to her speak so candidly, what is something she revealed about her marriages in these tapes that maybe wasn't public knowledge?

Nanette Burstein: Oh, my God. There's so much about her marriages that were not public knowledge. Where do I begin? I mean, and there's a lot of marriages, frankly. Her first marriage to Nicky Hilton where she was just so naive. She didn't understand love and marriage. She's 18. She'd been chaperoned her whole life. She's a virgin. He turned out to be an abusive alcoholic, and she reveals, in the tapes, that he was very abusive to her, physically. He, in fact, kicked her in the stomach and caused a miscarriage, and I put that into the film. There's a much longer story of how that played out, which I didn't go through because it was a little much. It was awful for her to be such a young woman. This is her first introduction to any kind of partnership in life, and it was obviously horrible.

Also, she talked about her-- all of her marriages. She talked about wanting to be dominated by men. She talked about her just colossal regrets of getting together with Eddie Fisher and how she never loved him and how she got together with him because she was so devastated by the death of Mike Todd, who's the great love of her life, who died in a plane crash. Eddie was his best friend, and she just wanted to talk to him as a way to still feel like Mike was in her life.

Alison Stewart: Was Mike Todd the love of her life to this point?

Nanette Burstein: It's hard to say. Obviously, Richard Burton was as well. Mike Todd died so quickly into their relationship that one can imagine when you see them together and hear everything they had to say about each other at that moment, that you would think it would be enduring, but who knows? Your guess is as good as mine.

Alison Stewart: I was struck by two things to her marriage to Eddie Fisher, that he may have been dangerous.

Nanette Burstein: Obviously. There is an anecdote, which I put in the film, of him putting a gun to her head at night and talking about, "Oh, you're much too pretty to shoot you." and yet holding a gun to her head at the same time, and there were other anecdotes like that. He was toxic, no question about it.

Alison Stewart: Liz didn't quite believe Debbie Reynolds. She called it kind of an act.

Nanette Burstein: She did. She's like, "Okay, I know you're America's sweetheart, and this is all happening, but I also know we were all best friends prior to this and your marriage was not in a good place, so stop pretending like you're just the martyr."

Alison Stewart: My guest is Nanette Burstein. The name of the film is Elizabeth Taylor: The Lost Tapes. It premieres on HBO on August 3 at 08:00 PM. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What memories do you have of Elizabeth Taylor? What was your perception of her as a celebrity, as an actress? What's your favorite Elizabeth Taylor movie? 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We just keep getting "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" This seems to be the big favorite.

Nanette Burstein: Well, it is. It's mine, actually. I have to say that what made me fall in love with Elizabeth Taylor was, as a teenager, I went to see it in an arthouse cinema and just was like, "Oh, my God. This is incredible." I didn't even totally understand it at that age, but I just knew that the story and the acting was phenomenal.

Alison Stewart: She seemed really free, free as an actress during Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

Nanette Burstein: I think she was free in general. I think she was someone who, despite the living under a microscope, she's like, "I'm going to live the life the way I want to live my life," and she did.

Alison Stewart: The other film which was interesting was Cleopatra. Well, it was very interesting, about Cleopatra. One of the things she did was she was able to land herself a pretty big check at the time. How was she able to do it, given the financial woes of the film?

Nanette Burstein: Well, it was before the film was made, and she didn't really want to do the film, so when they asked her, "Okay, what would it take for you to do this film?" she threw out a number that they thought they would never accept, and it was a number that no one, male, man, or woman had been paid to date at that time, which was $1 million, and they said, "Yes, we will pay you $1 million and 10% of the gross," and this was a deal that no one had made, so she's like, "Okay, I'll do it." [laughs] That's how the story goes.

Alison Stewart: You go all into all about how much it costs to make the movie, how many reshoots they had to do, but how was Cleopatra, ultimately when it was done, how was it a giant cultural phenomenon?

Nanette Burstein: The affair between Elizabeth and Richard Burton took on monumental attention in the public sphere. The definition of paparazzi really almost coins from their experience. They were filming this in Rome, and they were having an affair that became public knowledge, and they were both married. It got to the point where the Vatican had called this out, there was a bomb scare against her life. It was on the level of Princess Di. I think that's the only comparable experience I can bring to it. Yes, it was that level of public scrutiny and paparazzi.

Alison Stewart: Let's try to get one more call in. Wendy calling on line one. Hi, Wendy. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Wendy: Hi, guys. I was in the Lavender Light Black and Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Transgender Gospel Choir, back in 2004, and we had a gig to sing for an AMFAR memorial for one of their large-- for one of their big head honchos. Liz showed up to speak at that, and at that point, she was much-- she was close to-- I think she passed away the next year, or something after. She had had brain surgery by then, and she was really frail, but she got up there and she spoke eloquently about this man and his life. She knew a lot about him, and she was very effusive about how really integral he was to the program, et cetera. We got to shake hands with her afterwards. That's my big claim to fame, but I did meet her. I was in love with her ever since I saw her in Cleopatra, and I just thought that she was phenomenal.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in, Wendy. We're getting people, "Love Boom!, Very campy." "Suddenly, Last Summer," a lot of texts about Giant. If you want to know more about Elizabeth Taylor, you should watch Elizabeth Taylor: The Lost Tapes. It premieres on HBO on August 3rd at 08:00 PM. Director Nanette Burstein, thanks so much for spending time with us.

Nanette Burstein: Oh, thank you for having me.

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