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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart, and I'll just say it, I know many of you are anxious about the outcome of the election, and next week's going to be a tough one. One of the things we do here at All Of It, and WNYC in general, is to build community. All next week, like we do every week, we'll be providing a space on the airwaves for people to call in and voice their thoughts and feelings, gather for information and for context. We'll be with you, we promise, every step of the way. Some of the conversations we have planned for the next week include talking about how you got your news election cycle, how to manage anxiety about it. We also have some real joy and inspiration.

Thelma Golden will be here to talk about the pieces of art she thinks New Yorkers should not miss. We'll learn about the life of the great civil rights icon John Lewis, and we'll have a dozen singers from the Brooklyn Choir performing live in Studio 5. That is in your future. Now, let's get this hour started.

[music]

Alison Stewart: In the '80s and '90s, there is no bigger voice in R&B than Luther Vandross. From 1981 through 2003, he released 13 studio albums, 11 of which went platinum, at least platinum. Luther, as fans and friends called him, was born in Manhattan, raised by a single mom, and he could always sing. He was even in early episodes of Sesame Street as part of a group called Listen My Brother. Listen for Luther's voice.

Luther Vandross: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. We're only halfway. So here we go. 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Boys and girls, you can earn plenty, but you got to know how to count to 20.

Alison Stewart: We learn about that part of his life in a new documentary. He is stepping out as a background singer to lead his success as a jingle singer, his skill as a songwriter, and the struggles he faced about his weight and his sexuality. It's titled Luther, Never Too Much. It's directed by Dawn Porter, who you know from Good Trouble and the Lady Bird Diaries. She's here with us now. Hi, Dawn.

Dawn Porter: Hi, Alison. So good to be here.

Alison Stewart: We're also joined by one of Luther's longtime collaborators and friends who is featured in the film, Fonzi Thornton. Hi, Fonzi.

Fonzi Thornton: Hey, there. How are you, Alison?

Alison Stewart: I'm doing well, sir. Listeners, are you a Luther Vandross fan? What is your favorite song, performance, or memory of him? Maybe you're a singer or performer who worked with him. If so, we'd like you to share your experience with us. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can call in and join us on the air. You can text to us. 212-433-WNYC. Dawn, people know you from your political documentaries. John Lewis, Tulsa Massacre, Bobby Kennedy. What attracted you to this project?

Dawn Porter: Luther attracted me, and I think politics. Every filmmaker, you think about how you can stretch yourself creatively. I'd never done a music doc before, but I also think it's-- I'm very happy to hear about your plans for next week with some joy and some managing your anxiety. I really was in the mood to talk about something beautiful and creative, and Luther's story really fit that bill.

Alison Stewart: What was vital for you to capture about Luther's story?

Dawn Porter: There are so many people that are familiar with his music, but then there's a whole audience, a new audience out there. Excuse me. What was really, really important for me was to start to reveal some of the process, how he created that astounding music, and that he was a producer, a composer, an arranger, that he was just a multitalented person who worked really, really hard at making things look effortless. I was just so impressed by his work ethic, his intelligence. I really wanted people to see that part of Luther Vandross, that might not have been so visible to somebody who was such an elegant performer.

Alison Stewart: Fonzi, you met Luther when you were both really young. What were your first impressions of him as a person?

Fonzi Thornton: Oh, it's amazing. His sister, Ann, lived across the street from me in the Johnson projects in East Harlem, New York City. I went over to join his first vocal group. The thing that was so amazing is he was the first songwriter and vocal arranger that I had ever met. The man had a notebook of like maybe 75 lyrics of songs that he had been writing. Mind you, he was only 15 years old, and he was the first vocal arranger I ever knew.

He was fantastic with coming up with these amazing vocal parts, which went on to lead him to have a highly lucrative career as a session singer and as a jingle singer. Part of the story is that he was in a studio in Philadelphia when David Bowie heard him come up with the part, "Young Americans, young." That was a vocal part that he came up with, and that was part of what-- he was just a brilliant, brilliant person, I'd say.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Tell us a little bit more about that part in Young Americans, how did Luther come up with it?

Fonzi Thornton: What happened is he was invited down to a recording session. Our friend Carlos Alomar, who was guitar player, was playing for David Bowie, and they were doing the Young American album at Sigma Sound in Philadelphia, and Luther was sitting in front of the console while they were doing the playback, playing the music, and he turned to Robin Clark, who was Carlos's wife, and said, "You know what would go perfect there is a part 'young Americans, young Americans'." David said, "Who is that? Who is that?" Then he asked Luther to join the session.

This was a man who, besides being a great singer, he was a leader, he was a visionary, he was a vocal genius, and his vocal parts took him so many places in the world and opened doors for all of us who have been with him throughout his entire rise.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a little bit of David Bowie and Young Americans.

[MUSIC - David Bowie: Young Americans]

Alison Stewart: That's David Bowie, Young Americans. I'm talking about Never Too Much, a documentary about Luther Vandross. My guests are director Dawn Porter, as well as Fonzi Thornton, a lifelong friend and backup singer. There's this story, Dawn, about when Luther was in Shades of Justice, and they tell this great story about these particular green shoes. He was very detail-oriented. Those shoes had to be a certain way. How did you see this persistence and vision through the years?

Dawn Porter: Luther, as Carlos and Fonzi describe, Shades of Jade was Luther's first band when he was a teenager. He told his bandmates, Fonzi and Carlos, and Fonzi, you can talk about this as well. He told them that they needed the uniform. If they were going to be in his band, Mr. 15 years old, they needed the uniform, and you have to have emerald green patent leather shoes if you're going to be in the Shades of Jade. What I love about this story is, Fonzi said this is at the beginning of the movie. He was a boss from the beginning.

Fonzi Thornton: From the beginning.

Dawn Porter: I think he was a boss in multiple ways. He was the leader, but he was also sophisticated for his age, and he knew what he wanted. He had a vision for what this band would be. I think you see that through the rest of his career, it evolved, it matured, it got more spectacular, got bigger. Those seeds, what he was going to be like as a leader, those were there from the very start.

Fonzi Thornton: Absolutely. Luther's funny because he, from the beginning, he was assembling people. Like I've been saying lately that he was very intentional. That means he met me, he met Robin, he met Tawatha. He brought Cissy Houston, Whitney's mother, in to sing on all of the demos that he used to go on and get his record deal with Epic Records. After that, Cissy staying with us on the mic for every single recording. Once Luther signed Epic Records, after having sung with him in different groups and been friends for a long time, I was designated as the vocal contractor.

Luther would call me, say, "Fonzi, we're doing a new album. I want you to get the singers, get Tawatha, get Brenda, get Michelle, get Philip, get Paulette, but first, call Cissy to make sure that she is available. Cissy Houston is the godmother of all background singers. Luther was someone who always felt that background singing was an art form. All the work that he did represents what that concept is.

Alison Stewart: Fonzi, I was going to ask you, in terms of Luther's voice and his style, what was it like when he was a backup singer? Then what was it like when he was the lead?

Fonzi Thornton: Being the lead singer, I think all of us start out as lead singers. When you realize you have a voice and you start experimenting with it and start listening to people that you love and emulating them and stuff. That is like one skill, but lots of people who are lead singers have no clue about being background singers. It is an art form. It is a skill. You have to know how to blend. You have to know how to fall off. You have to know how to pull your voice back into the group so that it blends and creates a sound. Luther was someone who really taught so many people how to do this.

Anybody who ever sang with Luther just became a greater singer. You can ask any one of the many people that he has influenced in this industry just what singing with him did in terms of showing them how to be better singers and how to be lead singers with how to be great background artists. Yes, he was a brilliant, brilliant man.

Alison Stewart: Here's a text, fun fact. "In the 1980s, I worked for an answering service whose celebrity clients included Luther Vandross. Luther was one of the nicest clients to chat with. I still remember this many years later." Someone else texted in, "My favorite Luther Vandross song-- wow, I loved them all, but the one that breaks me every time is Dance with My Father. Instant tears." Let's talk to a woman named Olivia in Red Bank. Hi, Olivia, thanks for calling All Of It.

Olivia: Hi, thank you so much. I have to call in and I have to say just how much I love Luther Vandross. Specifically, my all-time favorite song is Never Too Much. Every time it comes on, I can guarantee you I never, ever skip it. I'm 27 years old and his music and his voice just truly carries on through generations, and he is truly a legend and just a magnificent artist that is loved by everyone.

Alison Stewart: Olivia, thank you so much for calling in. Dawn, what was important for Luther to get right when it came to performances? Because he made it seem so effortless, but he was working hard.

Dawn Porter: He was working really hard. Olivia, I love, love, love hearing you say that. I love hearing this new generation discovering his music, and that's one of the other things I wanted to do with this film. Luther, there's so many of my favorite lines from this movie, but Luther would say, "We do not play with your ticket money."

Fonzi Thornton: Your ticket money. That's right.

Dawn Porter: We had such a good time making this movie. We saw sketches that he created of some of the costumes. A lot of those costumes were hand-beaded, and he put his own money into creating them. He came up with David Bowie and Bette Midler, and those like really elaborate shows. They were really shows. That's how he came up. That was his inspiration, his model, and so he wanted to give his audiences that kind of extravagant, excellent performance.

You will hear people today, and they will talk about how many Luther shows they went to and how special those experiences were. Lisa Fisher, the insanely talented artist, is in our film, and she mentions people would say to her, "You didn't have to spend all that money. We would be fine with it, just hearing you all sing." Lisa Fisher says, "He was not fine with it. He wanted to give his audiences a show." He certainly did. We have a whole montage sequence in the film showing all the incredible costumes, which-- it was a really fun thing, thanks to Fonzi and the estate and the family. Those are actually the costumes that Luther and his singers wore that we were able to film and show people just how beautiful and magnificent they were.

Alison Stewart: You know what? Fonzi, with all this going on, there's a part in the film that really mentions how Luther felt a little bit underappreciated by the music industry at large. Why did he feel this way?

Fonzi Thornton: Because when you are a pigeonhole, it's great to have number one R&B records. You know what I'm saying? He created a huge fan base with number one R&B records. The thing is, everyone is interested in extending their audience. Listen, if Garth Brooks has a number-one country album, he may go on and have the number one pop album as well. That wasn't what was happening to Luther. Luther was having number one hits on R&B radio, but he was not being promoted in the way that he hoped to be so that he could have those number one hits that Lionel Richie, that Mariah Carey, that Whitney Houston, and Michael Jackson was having.

He definitely. It really just made that struggle to reach that crossover success, just made his music get better and better and better. That was amazing. Brilliant, man.

Alison Stewart: We're discussing the new Luther Vandross documentary, Never Too Much, was in theaters today with director Dawn Porter and Vandross collaborator Fonzi Thornton. Let's take some more calls. Brian, calling in from Mendham. Hi, Brian.

Brian: Hello. Luther had the greatest vocal range of anyone I've ever heard. I would put him right up there with Whitney Houston. House is Not a Home has always been my favorite song. My wife and I saw him in the round at Madison Square Garden three decades ago. Absolutely amazing.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in.

Brian: Truly gifted individuals.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Tony.

Brian: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Oh, Tony just dropped. Tony was telling us he used to play. He was a dj, and he loved the song Never Too Much. He would play it at roller skating rinks.

Fonzi Thornton: I love it. That's right.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Linda from Plainfield, New Jersey. Hi, Linda.

Linda: Hi, Alison. Great to hear your voice. Oh, my God, I love Luther Vandross so much. I'm so happy to hear this show. I cannot wait to see this film. Way back in the day, in my 20s, I actually got to see Luther twice in one evening. I had a date with so and so in the early show and then another date for the late show. Of course, I didn't tell either of them. I was like, "Oh, I have to go back home. I'll see you another time." Boom. I have my little girlfriends on the block. Like, "Well, where are you going with this other guy?" I'm like, "Back to see Luther again."

Fonzi Thornton: That's hysterical. That's funny.

Alison Stewart: Such a good--

Fonzi Thornton: That's really funny.

Alison Stewart: Such a good story. We're talking about Never Too Much, a documentary about Luther Vandross. It's in theaters now. My guests are Dawn Porter and collaborator Fonzi Thornton. Let's talk about Luther's sexuality. For years, there were whispers about it, and the film doesn't take a definitive stance. What conversations did you have to arrive at that decision, Dawn?

Dawn Porter: We had a lot of conversations. When I say we, I mean terrifically talented story producer Leah Smith and our editor Mark Fasson. Then, of course, we asked all of the people that appear in the film. I really wanted to have people who really, really knew Luther. It's really important, particularly when someone has passed, that you try and figure out what should remain private for them. I watched hundreds of hours of footage and interviews, and he was always so clear that he did not want to discuss his sexuality, his personal life, publicly. He was crystal clear about it. He never wavered.

If I had seen anything where he said, "Well, maybe someday," we might have thought differently about asking for folks differently, but he was very clear. I believe very strongly that that what Luther believes, and that's what we put in the movie, which is he said, what I owe audiences is my best effort, my music, my talent, but questions about my personal life will have to just remain questions. I think setting that boundary was important for him, and so we respected that boundary.

Alison Stewart: Fonzi, as his friend, he talks about not finding love in his life. I'm curious, how difficult was that to see as his friend?

Dawn Porter: Luther was dealing with things in his life that maybe his friends and family were not dealing with. It is very difficult to watch somebody who was so generous in what he gave to everyone else and what he gave to the world. It was so difficult to watch him not get what he was seeking. As with all things, as with grown people, this is a different time, a different generation. We were raised in a generation where my mother said, "What goes on in this house stays in this house." Privacy and just handling your own business. Why are you so busy being up in my business? Handle your own business."

Alison Stewart: The other issue that comes up in the film is his weight. It goes up, it goes down. It's amazing to see and horrible, in a way, to see how the media really focused on his weight. Dawn, how did that affect his health? He would gain 100 pounds. He would lose 100 pounds.

Dawn Porter: I think there are so many things in this weight story that we saw, and when we're pulling together the film really lean very heavily into archival footage and interviews. We had a lot of them because he had done all these electronic press kits for publicizing his records. We had all these interviews, but then we also had-- He was on a lot of the talk shows. We could have done a half an hour of just people asking him really intrusive, invasive questions about his weight. "How much did you lose? How do you weigh? How much do you weigh now? Are you going to gain it back? Wow, you have lost a lot of weight."

He dealt with it sometimes by humor, but it was really hard for him. Then, of course, physically he was a diabetic. That dramatic weight loss cannot be good for anybody. It was a big struggle, but I think it was also a mental struggle to be. When I think about it now, being in such a public position and having people constantly comment, I know how that would make me feel. You can see how it made him feel.

The last thing I'd say about that is he was on the Oprah show many, many times. I think about 14 times. That was something they shared, that gaining and losing in public. He spoke to her really movingly about it, and she very generously allowed us to use a lot of those clips in the film. I think hearing from him about how it made him feel for all the pressure to be put on him about the weight story, that was something that was really moving for us to discover.

Fonzi Thornton: To add to what Dawn is saying, too. Richard Marks says in the movie something that's brilliant. You have this brilliant artist, this man that is bringing such joy to so many people, and his life and career is being reduced to a sound bite about his weight. That's so unfair. I mean, can anybody imagine what that feels like for somebody to always be asking you questions that don't have anything to do with what you're giving the world, or all the joy that you bring?

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Teresa from Brooklyn. Teresa, you get to have the last call.

Teresa: Okay. My dream always was when I turned 40, that I would wake up and Luth would be in my bedroom singing to me. I'm 70 now. It didn't happen, but I love the man. I did not care what he looked like, what he did. That man could sing.

Alison Stewart: Oh, we just lost her. Thank you so much for calling in. The name of the documentary is Never Too Much. It's in theaters now. We've been speaking with Dawn Porter and collaborator Fonzi Thornton. Thank you so much for joining us.

Dawn Porter: Thank you so much for having us, Alison. This was really fun.

Fonzi Thornton: Thanks, Alison. Appreciate so much. The movie opens today, November 1st.

Alison Stewart: Sounds good. Let's go out on a little bit of Luther.

[MUSIC - Luther Vandross: Dance With My Father]