[music]
Kousha Navidar: This is All of It. I'm Kousha Navidar, filling in for Alison Stewart, and I bet you recognize this sound.
[MUSIC - Booker T and the M's: Green Onions]
Kousha Navidar: I'll bet you know this one too.
[MUSIC - Sam & Dave: Hold On I'm Coming]
Kousha Navidar: Surely, you know this one too.
[MUSIC - Otis Redding: Sittin' On the Dock of the Bay]
Sittin' in the mornin' sun
I'll be sittin' when the evenin' come
Watching the ships roll in
And I watch 'em roll away again,
Kousha Navidar: Green Onions by Booker T and the MG's, Hold On I'm Coming by Sam & Dave, and Sittin' On The Dock of the Bay by Otis Redding. All these songs were put out by the legendary Memphis label, Stax Records, which is the subject of a new documentary series on Max. Founded in 1957 as a country music label within just a few years, Stax became a powerhouse in the world of soul music, a legitimate rival to Detroit's Motown. Its roster included the artists you already heard, but it also had folks like Isaac Hayes, Rufus and Carla, the Staple Singers and many others.
The new four-part docuseries, it's called Stax: Soulsville U.S.A, traces the hitmaker's swift rise on the charts to the financial hurdles and tragedies that eventually brought it down. Woven throughout are reminders of what it meant to be a Black music label at the height of the Civil Rights movement. In 1972, the label organized the benefit concert Wattstax commemorating the 1965 Watts riots. All four parts of Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. are available to stream today on Max. The first two episodes will air on HBO tonight and the second two tomorrow. Joining me now to talk about the documentary is Director Jamila Wignot. Jamila, welcome to All of It.
Jamila Wignot: Oh my gosh, it is so great to be here and way to start a show with those great hits.
Kousha Navidar: There is only one way you can start a segment about Stax, and it's got to include Otis Redding. I'll just put that out there. Stax is sometimes presented like a foil or a counterpoint to Motown. What does that framing get right about Stax?
Jamila Wignot: Presenting as a foil? I don't know. I think sometimes it's as if-- I always think of that movie, Highlander, where there's this idea that only one can survive. I don't think that's true for these two labels. I think they were "Black labels" working in different ways with truly different sounds. I think they were actually incredibly motivating forces for each other. Certainly they were very much aware of each other. I just think that Stax is producing a sound that's a bit more rooted in the traditions and cultures of the people who made up its studio. That's why it has that distinct flavor. Then I think it's why the story unfolds the way that it does, being a southern label trying to take on the larger national marketplace.
Kousha Navidar: How would you define that Stax sound?
Jamila Wignot: Oh, man. That question. It's that incredible backbeat that you hear. I think basically Green Onions plus Otis Redding's extraordinary sense of horn arrangements is the stack sound, made in a movie theater so that you get this incredibly reverberant sound. Then in its earliest years, its first chapter, I think that sound is very much a reflection of a technological lo-fi approach where they were recording everything live. There's a really a live quality to the music because they would rehearse and rehearse and rehearse, and once they had the groove down, then they'd set it to the tracks.
I think the second chapter is really fascinating for the ways that it, in some ways, blows all of those frameworks out of the water and questions what exactly is Black music? I think that's what Isaac Hayes ushers in with his revolution, that Black music is not monolithic. That it can be rich and orchestral and very, very lengthy. [chuckles] "Here's an 18 minute song for you coming from Isaac Hayes." I think it's an incredible label occupying both spaces, traditional and then highly innovative.
Kousha Navidar: That was something that really came out to me while I was watching the documentary, was this idea of Black music cannot be monolithic. I think the origins of Stax really showed that for me. Can you go into that a little bit? It seemed like the early influences came from so many different places that you might not expect either, right?
Jamila Wignot: Yes, I think that's right. I think that's very much because of the musicians who were there. You have young musicians like Booker T and David Porter and Isaac Hayes, who had the benefit of attending these schools where they're being taught by some of the best musicians in the world. A lot of them are jazz musicians, so there's a lot of music theory that they're getting. You have country influences because of Jim's early-- Even though he failed, that was still his interest. You have folks like Duck Dunn and Steve Cropper and Wayne Jackson coming in, who are white guys who grew up with pop and also country music. They're bringing those flavors in.
In many ways, I think the sound they create is truly original and new, but it also still mirrors that thing that's true about American music in general, which is it's an amalgam. We always try to suggest that it's only one thing or another thing. I think we, the listeners and certainly the music industry, is putting things in boxes, but Stax confounds that, and in that same way, mirrors what music has always done in this country.
Kousha Navidar: Another thing that I thought was really interesting about this documentary was how many interviews you featured. There's interviews with Jim Stewart, Carla Thomas, Booker T. Jones, there's just so many artists who passed through that place. Who was your white whale for this documentary? Who were you really glad you were able to speak to?
Jamila Wignot: Oh, gosh. [laughs] All of them.
Kousha Navidar: Sure. That can be an answer. Totally.
Jamila Wignot: I think when I approached them all, they were all really intrigued, they were all really eager. I think there was a real need for them to trust me so that I was getting the story right by their eyes. Gosh, in terms of that white whale-- Also a sense of time. Jim Stewart was about 92, 93 when we interviewed him. I was really determined to make sure I got a live interview with him. That was really important. I think it was just making sure I had an expansive set of voices to tell the story was really important because it's really the story of a collective endeavor and the possibilities that come with collaboration.
Kousha Navidar: That story begins as being called Satellite Records actually. That's how Stax was founded, is in a studio in Brunswick, Tennessee. I know this from watching the documentary. I'm just telling you things you already know, but for the audience's benefit. In 1960, Jim Stewart, you had mentioned, and his sister Estelle Axton, moved it from a former movie theater in Memphis, Tennessee. Do you think Stax could have happened in any other city, or was there something special about Memphis?
Jamila Wignot: I don't know. There's a lot of studios in Memphis at the time. I think it-- just as one of those serendipitous stories where they were in the right place at the right time with the right group of people around them. Also I think they had the right perspective, that everybody involved in this, they're transgressing major racial lines, but I think it's in part because everybody involved in this saw music as the real passion. They were willing to come together in spite of the social barriers that were there and try to make something beautiful.
Kousha Navidar: One of the first single that was recorded and released by Stax Record after the name change was Cause I Love You by Rufus and Carla Thomas. It featured a teenage Booker T. Jones on baritone sax. Let's listen to a little bit of it.
[MUSIC - Rufus and Carla Thomas: Cause I Love You]
I done take very best girl of mine, yeah
I done take very best girl of mine, yeah
Gonna straighten up, baby,
Kousha Navidar: Man, that bari sax really just makes that record. I love listening to it. Booker T. Jones really is something special. Listeners, if you're just joining us, this is All of It. I'm Kousha Navidar, and we're talking to Jamila Wignot, who's the director of Stax: Soulsville U.S.A, which is available to stream on Max today. It goes through the history and the influence of Stax, the famous record company. We just listened to Cause I Love You. How did that song change things for Stax Records?
Jamila Wignot: Oh, man. A total 180. Jim Stewart has been, for about three years, working to realize his dream of a country music label. He says himself in the documentary, "Nothing was happening." For those in the community who had an interest in putting out a record, because records were the ways that they were going to be able to really launch their careers, Rufus Thomas, who's got a major, major presence in Memphis, both on the radio and in Beale Street, has his ear to the ground, learns that there's a studio and it represents a shot for him. If he can come in and cut a track, maybe he can further his career.
It's just an amazing moment where Jim Stewart hears that song, and his eyes lit up. Again, he just goes on instinct. I love that there's so many moments like that in this documentary, where people are moved by intuition. Jim is not digging his heels in and saying, "Oh, well, great song. Even though I'm turned on by it, it's not country music, so I'm not going to move it forward." He hears a great song, and he says, "To hell with it. I'll just put out this record." It captures the attention of Atlantic Records in New York and everything set sail from there.
Kousha Navidar: Was there another chapter in the documentary that you were especially moved by? Because you talked about that sense of intuition. I'm wondering if there's another element of the story that really sticks out for you in that sense.
Jamila Wignot: Yes. The third episode-- I don't want to give too many spoilers away, but the company undergoes enormous set of tragedies, the death of Otis Redding, the MLK being shot at the one other place where they could actually hang out interracially, the Lorraine hotel, and the company is cratered through a pretty bad business negotiation. Then when any other-- at the needier really of the label's history, when any other group of individuals might have given up, they look around and they see that in spite of where they are, and in spite of this major loss with Otis, they still have the essential ingredients of what will make this label sing.
They, on their knees, bet on themselves. It's a very American, almost Rocky-like moment, and they double down on themselves. Out of that, emerges like a phoenix from the flames, Isaac Hayes and his singular album, Hot Buttered Soul. For me, there's a level of persistence and determination that is coursing through this story that I find inspiring and also impossible to live up to, but it's just a reminder of the beautiful things that can come when you are self-determined, self-reliant, and have confidence in what your abilities are, and you take a chance on yourself, in spite of what the world is saying. I think that's an extraordinary lesson throughout this.
Kousha Navidar: Absolutely, that sense of not just lightning in a bottle, but betting on yourself to catch it, I think is wonderful. There's so much more to talk about. We have to stop there for time. Listeners, if you want to rediscover some of the best music that's come out of this country, then you got to check out Jamila Wignot's Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. It goes through the history of this wonderful old music record company. The documentary is available to stream on Max today. Jamila, thank you so much for your work and for coming down to talk about it.
Jamila Wignot: Thank you, Kousha. I'll talk to you soon.
[00:13:27] [END OF AUDIO]

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