Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you are here. On today's show, actor Brian Tyree Henry will be here to talk about his new series Dope Thief. We'll continue our Women's History Month series about women in engineering and producing with Patrice Rushen. We'll learn about the life and work of photojournalist Consuelo Kanaga, one of the first female staff photojournalists to work at a major US newspaper. She's the subject of a new exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum. That is our plan. Let's get this started with the new memoir Spellbound.

[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: You and Me]

Alison Stewart: When Phil Hanley was in first grade, he noticed that while his peers were learning to read, he couldn't seem to make progress. By the eighth grade, Phil was told he was still reading at a first-grade level. That's being like 13 years old and being told that you read like a 6-year-old. What could go wrong? He was finally diagnosed with dyslexia. He guessed his job would be at the minimart across from his high school in Oshawa, Canada, where he applied. A series of events led to his current career as a successful comic where he doesn't shy away from his life story. Here's a bit of Phil talking about what it was like doing homework with his mom as a kid.

Phil Hanley: I'm extremely dyslexic, sir. When I was a kid, I was in special ed all through school. My mom would do all my homework, all my projects, and then they still put me in special ed.

[laughter]

Phil Hanley: My sweet mom would always say to me, "There's nothing to be ashamed about being in special ed." I'm glad she felt that way because, technically, she was in it, too.

[laughter]

Phil Hanley: It's wild. If your mom does your homework, parent-teacher conferences, it's a different vibe. The teacher would be like, "I think Phil needs to put in more effort." My mom would be like, "How dare you? He's working full-time. He's raising three kids. He's a modern woman."

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Now, Phil has written a whole book. It's titled Spellbound: My Life as a Dyslexic Wordsmith. It's coming out tomorrow. Comedian Phil Hanley joins me in studio. It's nice to meet you.

Phil Hanley: Hey, so nice to meet you. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: You decided to write the book. You tell us about it on the last pages. You give it to Colin Quinn. He says, "I think you got a book in here." What went through your mind, given that you decided to write a book, given that you have really struggled with reading and writing?

Phil Hanley: I was approached by my manager and my literary agent. They proposed it. The appeal of it is it seems so hard that I was like, "Okay, this seems like something that I should dedicate." From the beginning, the idea to when they suggested it to now is like eight years.

Alison Stewart: Wow. That long?

Phil Hanley: Yes. As a dyslexic, you do the hardest things of just-- Everything is so hard that it seemed like the thing to do.

Alison Stewart: What was your process? Did you use a microphone? Did you write? How did you do it?

Phil Hanley: I made lists. I mean, the prep was crazy. The proposal took four years. The prep I started, I made a list of everyone I had ever met, and then every place I'd ever been to, just to try to jar memories and stuff. Then with no writing ability, I wasn't even really taught English in school, I thought exclamation marks were called loud marks when I sold the book. I just proceeded.

Alison Stewart: Wow. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Do you have dyslexia? What's been your experience like in education and navigating the world? What strategies or tools did you learn to help you? How did it make you feel about yourself? Give us a call. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Maybe you're a parent or an educator with dyslexic kids. We want to hear your perspective, too. Give us a call. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You write a lot about being from-- Pronounce it for me. How do you say it?

Phil Hanley: Oshawa.

Alison Stewart: Oshawa, Ontario. You say Oshawa is like Detroit minus the European flair.

Phil Hanley: Yes.

Alison Stewart: It made me crack--

Phil Hanley: Oh, thanks.

Alison Stewart: It cracked me up. What was something about Oshawa in Canada that lets us know that you're from there?

Phil Hanley: Oshawa is a tough town. It's a hockey town. With saying that, my favorite people, still my best friends and stuff like that were from there. Comedy, there wasn't a lot going down there. Being funny was really important.

Alison Stewart: Yes. When did you first realize, in terms of the way you learn, that it was different for you?

Phil Hanley: Kindergarten was great. Kindergarten went very well. Then the second I walked into the first grade, when I think back, it almost seems like a scene from Oliver Twist. It was just like got real dark real quick because I was just so perplexed how these kids, they were just reading is such a-- It looks so passive. You point your face at something and you get the information. I would do that and nothing would occur.

Alison Stewart: Oh, wow. Teachers kept passing you along through school A little bit.

Phil Hanley: Yes. They didn't want to.

Alison Stewart: They didn't want to?

Phil Hanley: That was the last thing they wanted to do. My mom would go in and fight for me.

Alison Stewart: How?

Phil Hanley: Sorry, I get so emotional talking about it.

Alison Stewart: Of course.

Phil Hanley: My mom would just go in and really advocate.

Alison Stewart: You write the nicest things about her in this book. You write, "My mom showed mercy. While she was pregnant with me, she had worked with teaching children with disabilities. Then I came along and she had to do it at home. When it was time to do homework, she came to the kitchen table armed with enough positivity for the two of us. Later on, she put her arm around you and said, 'You're not dumb. Don't let anyone tell you that.' "

Phil Hanley: Yes.

Alison Stewart: As you had to deal with these teachers, some of whom were not kind at all--

Phil Hanley: No. I would go so far as to say they were all not kind.

Alison Stewart: How did you deal with them?

Phil Hanley: It was the perfect combination of my mom was patient and my dad was really like, "You're smarter than them," which I don't know if that's the best thing to tell a little kid. My parents really built me up at home and that's what I say. I'm performing every single weekend all over the states and now starting all over the world. Parents will meet me after a show and they'll be like, "My child is diagnosed with dyslexia." To me, now that I've been through it, that's not a negative thing. What I say to them is, "It's so important to maintain their self-esteem because you can't help but feel stupid in school."

Alison Stewart: Did you feel that way?

Phil Hanley: Oh my God, yes, of course. If you're a dyslexic kid, if you have a dyslexic kid, you're nine and you have the grit of someone that's been through three marriages. You've been through something, you have character. If you can maintain their self-esteem, they're going to finish school. They're like a coiled spring and they're going to apply that tenacity to whatever they get into.

I finished school with some self-esteem intact, thanks to my parents. There's no way I've been doing standup so, so long. I just continued and continued and continued and continued. Now I'm starting to sell tickets, I get to talk to you, and I have all these opportunities and I was able to write a book and all that stuff. That's just because a lot of people had stopped doing standup, the people that I'd started with, but those are people that were good at everything. I never had any ability until I started standup, anything that was measurable on a scoreboard or a report card.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a couple of calls. Let's talk to Helen from Forest Hills. Hi, Helen. Thank you so much for making time to call in today.

Helen: Of course. Thank you for taking my call. I so identify with your guest because that's what made me call. I was never formally diagnosed, but I have dyslexia. I so understand it's so important for parents to support their kids. I'm 71, but I was a very loquacious and articulate kid. I knew a lot of vocabulary words because of my parents. They were that way too. We always talked.

It was a huge surprise when in the first grade, my teacher called my parents and told them that I was flunking out because I couldn't read. I understood reading, but the letters kept flying around and I just couldn't read. My dad, I remember it so well, sat down every day after dinner. For an hour, we would read my book, deconstruct words, letters. That was the basis which changed my life completely.

I always had difficulty. I read slower, but I got through school, through university. I went to Columbia Graduate School and I finished. Really, that's what did it. I've always had a problem, but as your guest says, they always said to me, "You can do this. Take the time." It was very, very hard. I worked longer hours always than anybody else did, but I had a good life, a good career. It's a thing.

Alison Stewart: Helen, thank you so much for calling in. We really appreciate it. What did you do during those years as strategies for you while you were a kid in school to take care of yourself?

Phil Hanley: I personally didn't have strategies. My mom worked with me every night. The bright spot in my life was socializing. I was always social. I find that's the case like Helen was saying. People are shocked when the kid can't read because they're precocious and smart and engaging with adults and conversational stuff. That's part of being dyslexic is you have to be above average intelligence and you have all these different interests. It's just you can't get that information from the page.

I remember when I was a kid, they couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. I remember getting a test. My parents paid for this person to test me. I would read a story and then try to answer the questions, get zero. Then they would read to me and I'd get the questions perfectly. They would be like, "We're so perplexed." I'm like, "It's so clear. It's so clear."

Alison Stewart: [laughs] What did it feel like when you were diagnosed with dyslexia?

Phil Hanley: It's a relief. I also have OCD. I remember being diagnosed with OCD and you're like, "Oh, thank goodness there's a name for what's going on in my brain." When I was a kid, I was so frustrated that-- My mom became an expert on dyslexia. I didn't want to talk about it and stuff, ironically, as a kid, because now as an adult, it's like my favorite topic. I felt relief that there was-- It was a sign that, "Okay, so I'm not dumb. There is a name for what's going on that I have."

Alison Stewart: My guest is comedian Phil Hanley. We're discussing his new book, Spellbound: My Life as a Dyslexic Wordsmith. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Do you have dyslexia? What's your experience been like in education and navigating the world? What strategies or tools did you learn to help you? Maybe you're the parent of a child who is dyslexic. Give us a call. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Let's talk to Meg in Paterson, New Jersey. Hey, Meg, thank you so much for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Meg: Thank you. I just wanted to say my mom had learning-- she had dyslexia. She told us stories about when she was growing up in the '30s, there was no diagnosis for it, so they just thought she was stupid and couldn't read. They actually put her in an insane asylum is the way she described it. She was there until her family came to visit. Then when they saw where she was, they pulled her out of there.

Alison Stewart: Wow.

Meg: She got diagnosed with my older sister when we were probably 12 to 13 years old. That was when she learned she was dyslexic. The doctor told her that if all of her children had the same kind of learning disabilities, don't worry about it. We all probably are dyslexic. My experience with dyslexia is in the form of numbers. I have difficulty with time. I have difficulty just keeping a sequence of numbers. We were just all told growing up that we were lazy, that if we only tried harder, we could do better.

Alison Stewart: Did you get the try harder?

Phil Hanley: Oh, I got the lazy try harder constantly. It's like just me getting here on time. I put in more effort. There's no lazy dyslexics. They wouldn't leave the house. I got that a lot. I talk to kids. I work with Eye to Eye, which advocates for people with neurodiversity, and I'll talk to kids. What a dyslexic goes through their homework is just so much more than just being able to sit down and answer the questions.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Ava. Hey, Ava. Thank you so much for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Ava: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Longtime listener, first-time caller. I'm a parent of a kid with dyslexia. This is such a great program. I really resonate with your guest, what he's saying about-- My daughter has such a high EQ. I think it's because it's how she takes in the world. She's tapped into people's feelings and what they need. She's a really good friend.

Also just want to say that there's a lot of great free resources out there now that didn't exist. One that I love called Learning Ally, which has almost every book you can find that they're reading in school, and it's audio so she can read along with it while she's listening. It helps her just get into reading a little more, which would take her maybe a lot longer, and she could listen. Finding those resources and finding your people and hearing programs like this is really great when you're a parent of a kid with dyslexia, so thanks.

Alison Stewart: Thanks for calling. I want to ask you about the conversation you had with your folks, Phil. They help you get through high school, but they sit down and they ask you, like, college probably not in it for you. What was that moment like?

Phil Hanley: It was a little bit disheartening because all my friends were going to college and I had friends that were like a year or two older than me. I would go and hang out with them on the weekends and stuff. It was really fun, but I was also relieved. It also made sense to me because, as a dyslexic, you learn really early on your life is going to be different. It's not just going to be a standard one.

In my book, it starts dark, but it becomes very light by the end. I'm so grateful that I'm dyslexic. I wouldn't be speaking to you if I wasn't dyslexic. I wouldn't be living in New York City or performing or meeting all the people that I've met. Dyslexia is such a blessing, but it's just getting through school and it's maintaining the self-esteem. I keep saying that because it's so, so important and it's hard to do because you're called lazy. If you're not called dumb, I was. If you're not, it's certainly implied always.

The statistics of kids with learning disabilities that are incarcerated and stuff like that, it's horrific, the percentage. Of course, you're frustrated all day. You're going to steal something, you're going to get in a fight, you're going to get in trouble because it feels very unfair. The world feels very unfair to you.

Alison Stewart: We're discussing the new book, Spellbound: My Life as a Dyslexic Wordsmith. Listeners, you can call in or you can text us at that number. We understand our lines are full. If you have a story you want to text to us, you can do that too. The number is 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We'll have more with my guest Phil Hanley and take more of your calls after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is comedian Phil Hanley. We're discussing his new book, Spellbound: My Life as a Dyslexic Wordsmith. It is out tomorrow. We are taking your calls as well. After college, your friend calls up and is like, "Are you still tall? Are you still skinny? Do you want to go out for modeling a job?" What did you think when you got that call?

Phil Hanley: I was shocked. All my friends went to college. I'm in Oshawa in my hometown, really with a lot of ambition to do something, but I didn't exactly know what as a non-reader writer. Shalom Harlow, someone from my hometown, who was a hugely successful model-

Alison Stewart: Huge model.

Phil Hanley: -yes, and is just a great friend and someone who thinks of other people didn't like the idea that I was stuck at home. I wish I had never thought of myself as a model or whatever. It was just a great time. I was skinny with long hair and it was when the heroin cheek thing was booming. It got me out of Oshawa. I lived in Europe for four years.

Alison Stewart: You're fairly successful for a male model.

Phil Hanley: Yes. I did some big jobs for-- I did fashion shows for Armani and Dolce & Gabbana, and I did some campaigns for like Levi's and stuff like that. The big thing that it did was it introduced me to people that loved what they did, these photographers that were like, "I got a camera when I was six and that's all I ever wanted to do," and stylists and designers and stuff like that.

It made me think like, "Oh, I want to do that." Because growing up, I didn't know adult had a job they liked. My dad loathed his job. My friend's parents didn't love their jobs. After the misery of being in school, I really wanted to do something that I look forward to doing every day. I knew modeling wasn't that. It was a great experience. Then I slowly found my way into comedy.

Alison Stewart: There's this funny point when Giorgio Armani says you look like a sick chicken because your legs are so skinny. [laughs]

Phil Hanley: Yes.

Alison Stewart: I wondered what that taught you about the world, the way that modeling and they judge you on your looks. What did it teach you about the way that people look at one another?

Phil Hanley: It's funny, my mom would always say to me-- I always say that she's so happy that I didn't take it personal. Modeling, especially for the shows, you go to Milan and you go to these castings every day. You're walking around Milan for eight, nine hours a day. They look at your book and they open a page, and if they're interested in you being in the fashion show, you might try on a sport coat or a shirt or whatever, but often they would open, they'd look at your book, and they'd just be, "Grazie." They push your book back and you'd be on your way.

If you've been judged for your intellect your whole life, if some Italian fashion designer doesn't think that you're perfect for his pants, you don't-- I didn't bat an eye with the being judged for my appearance because I'd been judged for my intellect negatively since I'm from 5 to 18, so I really was never insulted by that.

Alison Stewart: You also got really into meditation.

Phil Hanley: Yes. I still am.

Alison Stewart: You still do it?

Phil Hanley: Yes, I do.

Alison Stewart: What was it about meditation that was helpful for you?

Phil Hanley: Again, growing up in Oshawa, I didn't know anyone that had ever meditated or even I don't think there was nowhere you could do yoga or anything when I was a kid growing up. I was drawn to meditation, I think, because I knew it would involve the brain, and I knew that my brain-- At the time when I got into it, I really thought that my brain needed to be changed in some way. Also, if you are dyslexic or neurodiverse, you experience anxiety because you are, for a plethora of reasons and I really wanted to reduce that.

Alison Stewart: You're really into the Dead, right?

Phil Hanley: Yes, the Grateful Dead.

Alison Stewart: Because Bob Weir's really into meditation.

Phil Hanley: Yes, Bob Weir's really into meditation, and Bob Weir's very dyslexic.

Alison Stewart: What is the connection between the three things? Weir, meditation, and dyslexia?

Phil Hanley: See, another aspect of the Grateful Dead. Their lyricist, Robert Hunter, he's passed away, tells these amazing stories. For a kid that couldn't read but loves storytelling, it was great for me to listen to these songs and be able to hear these stories and feel really inspired by them.

Alison Stewart: This text says, "I have dyslexia and am an artist. I struggled through school and was embarrassed by my learning disability. I worked very hard and was able to attend Dartmouth College. After learning more about how many artists who are dyslexic, my attitude changed and I now see it as my superpower. I'm so thankful for my dyslexia now." This one says, "I have dyslexia. People have always told me I wasn't dumb, I was just a little slow. I wrote a song about my struggles in school. One of my lyrics, I may be stupid, but I'm smart enough to know being dumb is the same thing as being slow. Listening to Henry Winkler talk about his experiences growing up with dyslexia was a huge eye-opener for me." Let's also talk to Cheryl. Is Cheryl there? Hey, Cheryl. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Cheryl: Thank you. Boy, it's so nice not to be isolated. I didn't hear the word dyslexic until I heard it applied to my sister's kids. I was 22, 23 at that point. All of the labeling of you're not trying and slow, etcetera, in spades when I was growing up. Verbally, just fine. What I had growing up, I couldn't separate languages, among other things. I didn't understand that musical notation and small letters and capital letters and Hebrew writing and Hebrew printing and-- My first spelling test, they wanted the word stop, so I drew a stop sign-

Alison Stewart: That makes sense.

Phil Hanley: -with all the-- Because I didn't know. It was very pretty, but it didn't make sense to any-- I mean, it made sense to me. They wanted me to spell slow, so I put in a lud, because why not?

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate it. This says, "For dyslexic seniors, ask to get into your school records. Before the Freedom of Information Act, teachers wrote unbelievable things. It's a real eye-opener."

Phil Hanley: Yes. It's funny. I played in Vancouver, where my parents live, last week. I wanted to get some of the old report cards and I wanted to get report cards when I was researching the book. My mom had thrown out the report cards from when I was a kid because she said they were just so mean that she couldn't have them in the house.

Going back to what Cheryl said, one of the things that inspired me to write the book was I read a small book about someone that was dyslexic and I couldn't believe. When you struggle as a dyslexic, you feel like you're the only person in the world because your world is your classroom and likely you're the only kid that is dyslexic in the classroom and you think it's only you. I'd gone through my whole life, my adult life, everything, thinking that these experiences were just me.

Then nine years ago, eight years ago, I read a book about someone else that was dyslexic and you're just like, "Oh my goodness. Other people experience this thing that I experience" and it feels so individual and you bury it. That's why if I talk about my mom or I talk about my experiences as a kid, I can't help but feel instantly emotional. Also, when I talk about the Grateful Dead, they really bring up emotion in me too.

Alison Stewart: When did you decide to make comedy out of it once you got into comedy?

Phil Hanley: Once I started standup, you really start evaluating what makes you different. You want original material, and I immediately went to dyslexia. It's so crazy that I can go on stage for an audience that is intoxicated at eleven o'clock at night on a Friday and it's my dyslexic material that connects to people because either they are dyslexic or they know someone that is. Everyone has a challenge of some sort. That's the beauty of comedy, is you can have the bad experience, and then when you get a laugh from it, all of a sudden it feels worthwhile.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a listen to another bit of your standup act. This is from the third grade. Let's listen.

Phil Hanley: Third grade, the teacher was old and she learned to teach before dyslexia was invented. She didn't think it was a thing. She thought it was something that people made up to get attention, like gluten allergy.

[laughter]

Phil Hanley: She'd make the whole class read and then it would be my turn and I'd be like, "I can't read. It's the same situation as yesterday."

[laughter]

Phil Hanley: She would say, "Sound it out." Even as a kid, I'm like, "Yes, that's just reading."

[laughter]

Phil Hanley: It is so insensitive to tell a dyslexic child to sound it out. It'd be like if someone pulled you aside and was like, "Hey, I can't eat this. I'm deathly allergic to peanuts," and you're like, "Chew slowly."

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: How does it feel? We're all laughing. Like, we're all laughing throughout this, right?

Phil Hanley: Oh, good. That means a lot to me. I'm looking into the control room and people are laughing. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Everybody's laughing about it, but you're really talking about something really painful.

Phil Hanley: Oh, so painful. So very, very painful.

Alison Stewart: What is that?

Phil Hanley: When someone tells me that their child is dyslexic or something like that, I know because I can see into the future. I'm almost happy for them because I know you're going to excel in a different area, again, if the parent can maintain their self-esteem. I don't mean maintain their self-esteem by forcing them to play piano for eight hours a day. I mean just whatever they're good at and whatever their child is naturally drawn to, to celebrate that. If it's Lego or storytelling or stuff. That's the best part about comedy, again, is something bad, if you can make people laugh about it or make light of it, in a lot of ways, it feels worthwhile.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to John. Hi, John. Thank you so much for taking the time to call in. I believe you're calling from Brooklyn.

John: I am, and thank you so much. It's so great to hear this. I'm a proud owner of dyslexia and ADHD. My friend has OCD. I have no CD because I'm a mess. It's great to hear this. Third grade was huge for me. I was going to be held back. We had a conference with my third-grade teacher with my mother agreed, okay, I would be-- We got into the car and I burst into tears and I said, "Please, please, please don't make me stay back." She got ahold of my teacher and my mother was a great advocate for me, like we've heard several times.

Thank God for parents that really care and really, really give us some self-esteem. I was never called dumb or stupid, but when you're put in the Bluebird reading class, you look around and you figure out that, "Oh, oh, I am in a dumb class."

Alison Stewart: John, we really appreciate you calling in. We have to wrap up this segment. Before I go, I do want to ask you, Phil, is there anything you'd want to say to someone listening right now who is struggling with dyslexia, who hasn't figured out what they should do, how they should think about it?

Phil Hanley: Yes. I could talk for days to that person.

Alison Stewart: You got two minutes.

Phil Hanley: Okay. All right.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Phil Hanley: One, I hope I would recommend-- I just recorded my audiobook and I think that anyone who's dyslexic or anyone who's struggling with neurodiversity or struggling would get inspiration from that. Dyslexia, I truly believe that it's a gift. I'm so grateful that I have it now. We dyslexics, we're the most creative people and we figure it out. Cheryl said that she was asked to spell stop and she drew a stop sign. That's a little kid who's so creative and just problem-solving. That's what we do.

When we read, there's a different part of our brain working than a non-dyslexic. Wouldn't you want to be different in this world right now than just like a standard functioning brain? I really think dyslexia is a gift. I have complete faith that with the support, you really need someone to advocate for you and you need support. I need support. I'm going to book a hotel in San Francisco. My manager's going to do that for me. I am asked for support and help when I mail a letter. There's nothing to be ashamed about being dyslexic. It really is a gift if you just--

Again, I keep saying it, but it's so important for people to maintain kids' self-esteem, given a world that's not-- Basically, the only area we can excel is the way that school is structured. That's the only place. In my book, as soon as I got someone who read the test answers to me and let me dictate my answers, I won all these awards as the most improved student and finished at the top of my class. It was the final year of high school where they were like, "Let's give him what he needs." It's a disability like another disability. You need help to do certain things.

Alison Stewart: You should ask for help if you need it.

Phil Hanley: There's no shame in that because you're asking for help to do this mundane thing that everyone can do reading, but then you don't need help in all these other areas that a lot of people can't even fathom doing. A little girl drawing a stop sign, to me, that's like so much more impressive than everyone else who just spells the word.

Alison Stewart: Our text says, "This guy is a joy. He has a brilliant mind. To watch him accumulate information from his audience and speedily make connective jokes between them is astounding and belly-achingly hilarious."

Phil Hanley: Oh, that's very nice.

Alison Stewart: The book is called Spellbound. It is out tomorrow. Phil, thanks for coming in.

Phil Hanley: Thank you so much for having me and letting me speak about this. Thank you.