[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. Hey, thanks for spending part of your Tuesday with us. I am so glad that you're here. On today's show, we'll speak with author Frederick Joseph about his new collection of poetry, actors Lily Gladstone and Isabel DeRoy-Olson join us to discuss their new film, Fancy Dance, and musician Jordan Rakei performs live in Studio 5. That's the plan, so let's get this started with Outstanding: A Comedy Revolution.

[music]

I remember watching Rosie O'Donnell host her own show back in the day. It was when I was 11 years old, and I fell in love with Rosie's charisma, her joy, and I thought, "Oh, maybe I can do this too." She's one early influence for why I love hosting and injecting my own personality, my own identity into my conversations. Rosie is part of a community of LGBTQ+ standup comics who left an undeniable mark on our entertainment landscape.

A new documentary on Netflix showcases those contributions of LGBTQ+ comedians. It's called Outstanding: A Comedy Revolution. Through a series of interviews and archival footage, the film takes us through the history of queer people in standup from as early as Moms Mabley in the 1920s, through the '70s during the variety show era to today. The film raises the trailblazing efforts of comedians like Lily Tomlin, Wanda Sykes, Eddie Izzard, and some of the major career roadblocks and dead ends that often stifled their careers.

Like many trailblazers, queer comics did not let those moments get in the way of sharing their comedy with the world. Outstanding is a testament to how without queer comics, comedy and entertainment would not exist the way it does today. We want to share those contributions with you all as part of our month-long pride onscreen series. Joining us today is Page Hurwitz, director of Outstanding: A Comedy Revolution. Hey, Page.

Page Hurwitz: Hi.

Kousha Navidar: We also have the privilege of having a few comedians featured in the film as well, Suzanne Westenhoefer. Hi Suzanne. Welcome to the show.

Suzanne Westenhoefer: Hi, dear. I'm coming in from West Hollywood. I think I'm loud. I think the gardener is going [unintelligible 00:02:38] the house next door to me.

Kousha Navidar: No worries. Your sound's coming through crystal clear. No gardening in the background yet. We also have Todd Glass. Hey Todd, welcome to All Of It.

Todd Glass: Hello, hello. Good to be here.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, especially our queer listeners, we want to know who your favorite queer comedians are. Our phones are open. You can text us. Who is the first LGBTQ+ comedian you saw on TV? Maybe it was Rosie O'Donnell, maybe it was Margaret Cho, Wanda Sykes. What did seeing them do standup comedy mean to you? Maybe there's a new queer comedian on the block you want to shout out today.

Phones are open. Give us a call. The number is 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Or if you're on Instagram, if you're on X, hit us up. Our social handle is @allofitwnyc. Before we dive into the contents of the film, let's talk about your firsts right now. Page, who was your first queer comedian that you remember watching on screen and how did watching them make you feel?

Page Hurwitz: I certainly remember people who probably weren't out of the closet but I identified them as being gay. I would say Rip Taylor, Paul Lynde, Charles Nelson Reilly. I used to love watching them on television as a kid. Then of course, as I got older, I think the first standup that really hit me in a different way was Sandra Bernhard when I saw Without You I'm Nothing. I thought, "Oh, wow. This is something totally different."

It felt like we were doing something taboo, like being able to watch her on-- She would be on David Letterman, and I remember setting my VCR when she would be on. I just had one tape and it looked like it was eventually shot in a cave because it was worn out so much, but every time she was on, I would record it and so would my friends. It was like we couldn't believe that we got to watch her on national television.

Kousha Navidar: Suzanne, I was watching you while Page was answering and you had a big laugh when Page was like, "They didn't come out, but I could identify them as queer." How about for you? What was your first?

Suzanne Westenhoefer: That's what I was thinking. I couldn't say who was my first gay comedian on TV or in that way, but I was like, "Page--" I'm going, "Oh, that was out before me." Not that I remember specifically on TV, so that was a really weird thing. I saw Kate Clinton in 1981, the year I came out when the-- I don't know it's so long ago, but I saw her live.

Because through the '80s, wouldn't you say Page, that in order to see an openly gay comic, and I think in the '80s there were four in the United States, you'd have to go to a lesbian club cabaret concert.

Page Hurwitz: Yes. You'd have to definitely go to one of our queer venue, queer spaces. On TV, other than Robin Tyler, I don't know anyone who had come out.

Suzanne Westenhoefer: We didn't get to see her on TV in the '80s.

Page Hurwitz: We were too little. [chuckles] We were too young. In the '80s it was really Bob Smith was the only one.

Suzanne Westenhoefer: He wasn't even on regular TV yet. It was still funny gay males. That's what's so weird.

Page Hurwitz: [unintelligible 00:06:06], yes.

Kousha Navidar: Todd, how about you? Is there an early comic that really influenced you, that you looked up to whether or not they were out that you really identified with?

Todd Glass: Some of the same names they said, but I think maybe-- I was so homophobic myself being gay if that's the right word that anybody that talked about it made me nervous and scared. During the documentary, we saw so many people that were out and I was like, "God, I should have had so much respect for them and empathy and said they were scaring me." I have a hard-- Mario Cantone, am I saying his name right?

Page Hurwitz: Yes.

Todd Glass: He was out very early. Now in hindsight, you're like, "Oh my God." Just a tremendous amount of courage and respect to him. I think anybody that talked about it made me nervous. Anybody that was flamboyant made me nervous.

Kousha Navidar: Right.

Todd Glass: To be honest, and I'm the same age as these guys, maybe even a little older. The first comedian that I ever saw was like, "Oh, he wasn't overly tough. He was just right down the middle like a dude," is when I found out James Adomian was gay. That wasn't growing up, that was me as a full-grown adult, but I was like, "Oh, I relate with this guy. He's just a dude that does comedy that happens to be gay." It was exciting for me.

Kousha Navidar: The film itself is an incredible primer on queer history, and it goes into exactly the kind of things that you're talking about. Page, you are no stranger to directing standup specials. This film includes some standup sets. Sure, but you also go deep into the archives. How familiar were you with the history of queer comics before starting this project?

Page Hurwitz: I had some knowledge because I started my career as a standup in San Francisco and the Castro District. I spent a little bit of time doing standup and had a half-hour special at one point, but I really was surprised by how much I didn't know. In particular, someone like Robin Tyler, I really didn't know Robin's story. I had heard about Robin, but once you dig into her life story, there's just so much there. I also was surprised about things that I discovered about Lily Tomlin that I didn't realize.

I think sometimes we look at the world from 2024 lenses through them, and we can be really harsh critics of ourselves and of the people in our community. Sometimes we don't really dig in and find out everybody's story. With Lily, she did so much subversive work in the '70s that she really doesn't get credit for. It's not really well known. I was very excited to find all of those things, and certainly, with almost everyone that's in the film, I learned something.

Certainly the history, which is a big part of the movie providing context for all of these comedians and their work, that was, of course, there was always something to learn throughout the decades. It's a 100-year review essentially.

Kousha Navidar: I'm sure there are a lot of names that pop up in this documentary that callers that we're going to get to probably are going to mention on their own because they have left indelible marks as we have said. Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking about the new documentary Outstanding: A Comedy Revolution. It's a documentary on LGBTQ+ comedians. It's out on Netflix today.

We're here with Page Hurwitz, who's the director. We've also got Todd Glass and Suzanne Westenhoefer who are comedians that are a part of the project as well. We want to hear if there are queer comedians that have left a big mark in your life? Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. I'd love to go to some calls. We've got Neil in the West Village. Hey Neil, welcome to the show.

Neil: Hello. Yes, Neil Greenberg, and thank you for doing this segment and thank you for making this film. I'm wondering if Frank Maya is included in the film or if you know of him? Frank Maya was my boyfriend for five years. He died of AIDS in 1995. He was an openly gay comedian on television. He was the first openly gay comic on MTV's Comedy Hour, I think it was called at the time. He had a half hour special on Comedy Central or Hot TV, or whatever it was called at that time.

Kousha Navidar: Neil, thank you so much for that call and for sharing that memory. Suzanne, I saw you were about to hop in on there.

Suzanne Westenhoefer: I just wanted Neil to know I started doing gay comedy in New York City '90. I met Frank right away because he did that too. I knew him very well. I don't know if you remember. It feels like it's so long ago. All Of It, right?

Kousha Navidar: Yes.

Suzanne Westenhoefer: I just wanted you to know I loved him. He was phenomenal. He's one of the very first boys to stand up there all by himself and say he was a gay guy. It was unbelievable.

Kousha Navidar: Neil, we really do appreciate that call. It brings up a lot of important history. I learned a lot more about the role comedy played in LGBTQ liberation against hate and homophobia. Page, I'm wondering, can you tell us a bit more about the role comedy and performance played in the LGBTQ+ movement and the rights movement, especially during the '80s and '90s?

Page Hurwitz: Sure. I think that when we look at the history of queer liberation, throughout the last, certainly the last 50 years, but I think even beyond, there are just so many examples of queer comedians who were out front. Obviously, I think the biggest coming out in American culture was Ellen, who is a comedian. I think the first queer comedian to be out on television was Robin Tyler. Who else was out on television at that time? No one. It was a comedian.

Time and time again, we see comedians being the first. It's not just that they were the first comedian to do it, in many cases, they were the first person. That's always been really fascinating to me. I think it speaks to the fact that standup comedy is one of the few remaining art forms where you could say what you want. You're not getting network notes, you're not getting-- You're able to stand up on stage and stand in that spotlight and say whatever you want.

I think queer comedians in particular have done that time and time again, and in the best possible way, practitioners of stand-up comedy that's thought-provoking and that that challenges the status quo. It's holding up a mirror to society indeed, but it's also about pushing boundaries, and making people think, and challenging assumptions. I think queer comedians in particular have just been exceptional in terms of advancing the march toward queer liberation.

Kousha Navidar: Something that resonated with me, at least when I was watching the documentary was, in light of all that, it was also still about people. Todd, for you, your coming out story especially struck me. Can you talk a little bit about how comedy played a role in this idea of resistance in your own life, if it did, what that process was like for you?

Todd Glass: In my own family, it's weird because my parents didn't care, my brothers, most comedians didn't, that I stayed in the closet that long. I think it's because I knew what people said behind your back. Let's say if you're Black and people are racist, they might turn it off in front of you, but I knew everything they thought. Even the most open-minded people, here's what I remember, even if it was my friends, "Hey, did you hear Rob came out of the closet?" Right in front of me, they don't know. They'd be like, "Oh, I don't care." Then for an hour, they would talk about, "Can you imagine two guys having sex?"

It was probably normal that they did that. They didn't know about it. They didn't do it in a hateful way. Maybe sometimes it was a little immature. I thought, "Oh my God. If I come out, all they're going to do is imagine me having sex everywhere I go." A little of that stayed with me when I came out because I went to the improv the first night after I came out on Marc Maron's show, and I had my head down a little. I didn't know why until the next day I talked to a friend about it. He goes, "You felt naked." I knew it would make my comedy better, so I knew that it was important to do just for that.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. It is such a human experience and it is your story. It is many other people's stories about the spectrum of experiences and the way that comedy plays many different roles in life. Well, we got to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to talk more about how that comedy got better and how we see it evolving today. Before we get to a break, we just got a text that I want to read out real quick. Suzanne, I think you're going to like this.

The text says, "I think Suzanne Westenhoefer was the first lesbian comedian I saw in Provincetown in the early '90s and she was so great." A little love there. Folks, we're talking about the new documentary Outstanding: A Comedy Revolution. We're going to take a quick break then we'll be right back. Stay with us.

[music]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar. We're talking about Outstanding: A Comedy Revolution. It's a documentary about LGBTQ+ comedians. It's out on Netflix today. We're here with Page Hurwitz who's the director, got Todd Glass the comedian, and Suzanne Westenhoefer, another comedian that's featured in the documentary. We've got a caller. I want to dive right in. This is Amy from the Bronx. Hey, Amy. Welcome to the show.

Amy: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. There are so many queer comedians that it just [chuckles] really make our lives better. I'm super psyched about this upcoming documentary. A couple that I want to give shout outs to are certainly Kate Clinton. Her Irish Catholic upbringing, and former being an English teacher certainly resonates with me. Suzanne, the riff that you had at Michigan Women's Music Festival about, what would it be like if butch lesbians took over for Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, but did straight women or femmes instead? Elvira Kurt-

Suzanne Westenhoefer: Oh my God.

Amy: -out of Canada. Yes.

Kousha Navidar: She's in the doc.

Amy: Then I want to say-- Oh, great. I can't wait to see it then of course. Karen Williams, that woman has us all-

Page Hurwitz: She's in doc as well.

Amy: -doubled over in our Birkenstocks with hilarity. She's-- Oh my God.

Page Hurwitz: [laughs]

Amy: It's just so great how lesbianism is hilarious. Queer life is hilarious. For us to see our lives reflected in these funny, positive, normalizing ways is just so incredibly affirming, but also, it's important that we laugh at ourselves too.

Kousha Navidar: Amy, thank you so much for that call. Definitely heard some names. Suzanne, your name was among them. I'm wondering for, you were very outspoken as a lesbian in your stand-up. What made you decide that, or was there a moment when you chose?

Suzanne Westenhoefer: I'm one of those people, it's in my DNA. I organized a sit down of my cafeteria in high school in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. When I came out in college, I started a gay group. That's me. In the '80s, I moved to New York and the AIDS crisis is going on. We're marching, "Reagan talk about AIDS." Then somebody says to me in the end of 1989, they're like, "Why don't you get up like the activist comics?" He didn't know anybody gay, but he's going, "And talk about all that stuff, then you can do the jokes like you do when you're bartending," because I was a bartender.

I'm like, "Oh, all right. I'll try that one." I didn't even get up to be a star or a comic. I never thought I had talent. I got up to be an activist, but I knew I could make it funny because I'd been bartending for eight years. I got up and won the little open mic contest. Then I was on Sally Jessy Raphael like a month--

Kousha Navidar: [laughs] Sally Jessy Raphael, I remember that. We have a clip actually about your comedy style here. This is from when you talk about Wimbledon. Let's hear that clip right now.

Suzanne Westenhoefer: I started out, I did gay comedy and straight clubs in New York and a lot of clubs would play me, but there was one club that wouldn't play me. I don't want to mention the name or anything. Comic Strip. [laughter] It was really amazing. I auditioned for them three times and I did really well. Don't you know this little worm of a manager walks up to me and goes, "Oh, well you're really good, but I don't think we can use you. Because we groom our people for TV, and I don't think there'll ever be lesbians on TV." [laughter] I said, "No lesbians on TV? What about Wimbledon?" [laughter]

Kousha Navidar: That was Suzanne Westenhoefer from a clip in the documentary Outstanding: A Comedy Revolution. Callers, we're taking your calls right now about, what queer comics have made a difference in your life? Give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. We've got Caitlin in Harlem. Hey Caitlin. Welcome to the show.

Caitlin: Hey there. I love this so much. Thank you all.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely.

Caitlin: I'm calling--

Kousha Navidar: Yes, go ahead.

Caitlin: I was saying, "Keep talking." I'm calling because I used stand-up to come out as queer. I didn't even know that that's what I was doing, but it felt easier for me to get up on stage in front of a room full of strangers and sit across the table from my mother and tell her that I was a lesbian. She's so funny. She used to say lesbian, like "Lesbian," the same kind of way that that clip was.

I think it's because of I'm listening to this segment and I'm like, I think it's because of this unspoken cultural home of queer comedians who just like, we feel like we just made it okay. I'm like super grateful for that. Just wanted to say that I stopped doing stand-up though because I used to do all the village clubs and stuff and was just trying to get five minutes of stage time. It just got really toxic and draining and so I stopped doing it. I'm planning a podcast with my other queer friend about dating our dads, we're going to call it. That's how I'm going to try to use my stand-up whatever.

I think the other thing is I came out as a lesbian stage, but then realized I was pansexual so it's awkward because you can Google me, Caitlin Campbell Comedy and it's all about coming out as a lesbian but I'm not actually a lesbian. [laughs]

Kousha Navidar: It evolves.

Page Hurwitz: That's the one downside to just doing that on stage like that.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. [laughter] You have to go back retroactively.

Page Hurwitz: You’re going to take it back.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Caitlin, thank you so much for that call. Todd, before the break, you talked about how using your identity in comedy eventually made it better. I hear Caitlin here saying that she's using comedy as a tool. Instead of sitting across from her parents, it's easier for her to say to a bunch of strangers. I'm wondering for you, how has coming out made your comedy better, as you say?

Todd Glass: I think when you come out, a lot this you don't know until you're in the process. In hindsight, you come out halfway and then you realize there's still other things you're keeping in the closet, and maybe they came out quickly after. Just being able to talk about things on stage like my obsession with atmosphere and lighting, it seems so immature right now, but I wouldn't talk about it because I was afraid that people would think, "Oh, he's gay because he cares about that."

Authenticity is something that will always be in good comedy, and I think being out, being authentic and true to myself. Being gay isn't everything about me, but it is a slice of me that when I feel necessary to share with an audience that I can now, and you can do it now. The thing is though, and I only say this to show how long some of this stuff sticks with you, if I think a crowd doesn't like me, my brother asked me this, I won't talk about being gay on stage. "He goes, why?" I go, "Because if they already don't like me, then they find out I'm gay, maybe they won't like me even more."

I realize how toxic that is. I get it. Believe me, it's something that on nights when I try to work through it, but it's there. It is there. I'm not proud of it.

Page Hurwitz: Todd, I will say that's not something that is unusual to you. I remember when I first started, we would always talk about the people in my class, we would always talk about at what point do you come out in your set? What point do you tell the audience? Do you get them to like you first for 10, 15 minutes and then you throw something in? Do you tell them at all? Do you do it right up front? It was always something that we talked about early on when we were out on stage, and so it's not unusual. It's still something that's there.

Todd Glass: Yes. Real quick, I'll jam this in there because I think it's important. The more diverse the club you're in, the more comfortable I feel. I always want to say having diverse shows, all types of people, is not a favor to the diversity. It's not a favor, it's not a handout, it makes better crowds.

Page Hurwitz: Yes, and the shows.

Todd Glass: It's a favor to the audience. Every time you go to a club, the more diversity of the pictures on the wall, the better the crowds end up being because it represents the world. I don't want it to be like in the ‘80s when I would go to shows, and I was not stupid. You would think I would be stupid not to put this together and it says to be careful about the things we talk about now because they didn't seem so egregious in the '80s. Me and my friends would go, "How come there's only white people at comedy clubs? How come there's only basically straight people at comedy clubs?"

Now I go back and look at it. Not there was, there was brilliant comedy in the ‘80s, of course, but there was a lot of homophobic, racism, sexism. Now I look back at it and go, "No wonder only white people went to shows." It wasn't good. It wasn’t good.

Kousha Navidar: In the-- just go ahead.

Page Hurwitz: Yes, the shows weren't as good as they could have been either. The shows are so much better now.

Todd Glass: Yes.

Page Hurwitz: There’s a diverse lineup, there's a diverse audience. You get so many different perspectives and so many different styles of performance and jokes. It's great. It's so much better.

Kousha Navidar: There's this idea of intersectionality that I think comes up in the documentary that spoke to me, and I think speaks to the theme that we're talking about and that you, Todd, you Page are talking about so well right now. It reminds me of this Wanda Sykes clip from the documentary that I want to bring up. Let's play that real quick.

Wanda: It's harder being gay than it is being Black. It is. [applause] Because there's some things that I have had to do as gay that I didn't have to do as Black. I didn't have to come out Black. [laughter] I didn't have to sit my parents down and tell them about my Blackness. [laughter] I didn't have to sit them down, "Mom, dad, I got to tell y’all something. I hope you still love me. I'm just going to say it. Mom, dad, I'm Black." "Wait. What did she just say? Oh, Lord Jesus. She didn't say Black, Lord. Did she say Black?" "Mom, I'm black. " "Oh, Lord, Lord Jesus. [unintelligible 00:25:46]

Kousha Navidar: That was Wanda Sykes, was a clip pulled from the new documentary Outstanding: A Comedy Revolution. There's this quote from one of the queer trailblazers that's featured in the film. It's Robin Tyler and she says, "Comedy is the razor-sharp edge of the truth." Page, I'm wondering, I'd love your thoughts on this. What makes stand-up a way to tackle the truth in a way that journalism or reading a textbook really can't?

Page Hurwitz: Oh, I think any of the three of us could answer this. I think it's that people can-- I think Robin even says this in the film which is that people can hear in comedy things that they can't hear any other way because comedy is disarming. It is we are making people laugh, and at the same time, because you're making people laugh, you can make a point, you can say something that might challenge their typical outlook on things.

I think also what it does and so many comedians in this film do this so well, I think it's my favorite kind of comedy is making the personal universal so that you're telling a personal story or you're making personal observations that a disparate group of people can relate to. It makes people then go, "You know what?" After they've been laughing for a bit and they're feeling good, they go, "I kind of like this person and you know what? You know what? Maybe we're more alike than we are different." Comedy that's why it's so powerful. It could be used as a weapon, it could be used as a tool.

I think that ultimately, this film celebrates the fact that so many of the queer comedians that are featured in the film, all of them really, used it as a tool. It really helped to-- It wasn't their goal. Their goal was just to make people laugh, but a byproduct of their work was that people did sit there and reexamine their thinking and maybe see that we're we have way more in common than they had realized ever before.

Kousha Navidar: We did just get a text that I want to read out that I think is really important here. It says, "What I appreciate is that being gay is no longer the start and end of a joke in mainstream TV and movies like it was in the ‘80s, a side effect of normalization." I'm looking at the clock, we're wrapping up here, but there's this quote that Eddie Izzard says at the end of the film that I'd love to get your reactions on. She said, "When LGBTQ hits boring, then we've made it." I'm wondering what your reactions are to that. Page, I see you nodding your head. What sort of world would you want to live in as comedians? Page, let's start with you.

Page Hurwitz: I love that that interview bite so much that's why I put it at the end of the film because that's the goal. We shouldn't be the butt of the joke. We shouldn't be the joke. Our sexuality should be incidental. It's not the thrust of what most people talk about on stage. You don't meet somebody and say, "Oh, hey. Nice to meet you. My name is Page. I'm gay." It's not the thrust of our acts, and the comedians in this film, certainly, it's not theirs.

I think when we get to the point where it's no longer a cause celeb, it's not something that is attracting negative attention, or even for that matter, that we have to go out and celebrate. We do still need to do that now, but hopefully it'll just be like anything else. You have blonde hair, oh, and you're gay. Okay, great. No big deal.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Todd, Suzanne, anything else to add?

Suzanne Westenhoefer: Yes, I actually-- Oh, go ahead, Todd.

Kousha Navidar: Sorry. Suzanne, let's start with you. Go ahead.

Suzanne Westenhoefer: Actually, I think I want us to always celebrate it. I've always said that being gay is like being a gravy on the mashed potatoes of life. Mashed potatoes are great by themselves, but the gravy. We're sauce, and so I think we are special, and it is special. I'm always going to feel that way. I'm also old, that's why. I'm a boomer. I think it's okay for us to celebrate that the gay comedy-- Our lives are a little bit different. I didn't mean [unintelligible 00:30:13] that way, Page.

Page Hurwitz: No, I just mean when the white straight guy has a parade, well, they don't have to have a parade. Sorry. Go ahead, [unintelligible 00:30:21].

Suzanne Westenhoefer: No, I know what you mean. I'm just saying, I think it's a good thing that the lesbian comics of the '90s, there weren't that gay guys yet out. That was just the truth of that. They worked really hard to go, "Yes, we're different, but you don't have to fire us. You don't have to hurt us because we're only this kind of different." They would make little jokes about it, like, "We don't get a bridal shower, so we have to buy our own lamps." Do you know what I mean?

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Todd, how about you?

Todd Glass: I think if I understand the question, what Eddie was saying, because I really like that quote. Was that even now on stage, a friend asked me, he goes, "When do you think you're going to just-- what Page said, just mention, oh, my boyfriend in the story, or my husband?" I'm trying to get to there and I do now. I'll mention it because I still feel I want to mention it first, and then I just go into relationship jokes and they're all the same.

I said, when I came out, people go, "Oh, it's a shame that you had to make up a set. You had to make up all those stories." I go, "I didn't make up the stories. I changed the sex." People in the audience were hysterical that were in, men and women in the audience, which proves that, yes, they're just relationship jokes. I think that I'm almost there as far as not talking about being gay, but just talking about halfway through my act going, "Anyway, my husband" and then here comes the relationship joke.

Kousha Navidar: Yes.

Page Hurwitz: The same for gender identity as well. I think it's, I hope we get to the place where comedians don't feel compelled to have to talk about it.

Kousha Navidar: Well, we did. We just got the-- Well, go ahead, Todd.

Todd Glass: Also real quick, I don't know why I feel the need. Comedy because so many people say the other thing, I think it's important every time I can to jam it in there. Comedy, you can say more than you could ever say in the history of this world. Any comedian that says you can't, go ahead, go do a TV appearance with the rules from the '80s. Go ahead, go do it. It's more diverse than it's ever been, and it's better than it's ever been. There's so many young, funny people. Comedy's in a great place. Just like acting; it doesn't get worse, it gets better.

Kousha Navidar: I'll have to pause you there. The documentary is Outstanding: A Comedy Revolution. It's a documentary on LGBTQ+ comedians out on Netflix today. Page, Todd, Suzanne, thank you so much for hanging out with us.

Todd Glass: Thank you.

Page Hurwitz: Thanks for calling us.

 

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