Title: A Forgotten Fantasy is Revived at The Shed [MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. In 1987, Austrian pop star, artist and curator André Heller set out to create what he called a carnival of the avant-garde. It was called Luna Luna. Originally set in Hamburg, Germany, the grounds hosted 33 attractions, including a carousel painted by Keith Haring, a Kenny Scharf swing ride, Salvador Dalí-designed geodesic pavilion. Then there are the giant pieces from Jean-Michel Basquiat, Roy Lichtenstein, and David Hockney.

Heller said, "Art should come in unconventional guises, and should be brought to those who might not ordinarily seek it out in more predictable settings," but because of legal issues, it sat in storage for decades. Now it has a second life at The Shed. The show is called Luna Luna: A Forgotten Fantasy. You can see it there until January 5th. One of the reasons the show exists is my next guest, the show's chief creative and experience officer, Michael Goldberg. Welcome to the studio.

Michael Goldberg: Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we'd love to get you in on this conversation. Have you been to see Luna Luna? What did you think? What part of the show was your favorite? Call us or text us, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, or you can reach out to us via social media at All Of It, WNYC.

Okay. We're going to go in chronological order with this. In 1987, Luna Luna was conceived by André Heller from Vienna, Austria. What did he want to create with Luna Luna?

Michael Goldberg: Well, André's dream actually starts back in the late '70s. André was determined, as you mentioned with that quote, to bring art to a wider audience. He basically has this grand idea of taking the format of a Luna Park, which was originally started in the early 1900s in Coney Island and spreads around the globe. Especially pops up in Europe with these Luna Parks. André has the idea of taking that format but presenting it in this totally new way by inviting some of the greatest living artists of the time to design rides, games, pavilions, interactive attractions for guests to experience.

Alison Stewart: Yes. He was so invested in this idea of a carnival of the avant-garde. What does that mean exactly, or how did you respond to that?

Michael Goldberg: Well, it's taking this traditional format that people have likely experienced in their local communities around the globe, which is a fair, an amusement park, a carnival, but inviting artists to rethink it and to apply their skill sets to the format of a Luna Park.

Alison Stewart: He just calls up Keith Haring and says, "Hey, want to make a carousel?" How does that work?

Michael Goldberg: No. It actually starts, like I mentioned, in the late '70s. The first two artists - when he comes up with this idea - that he meets with are Salvador Dalí and Sonya Delaunay. With Sonia Delaunay, he went out to Paris and he literally just knocked on her door, and luckily she answered. She invited him in. They immediately spark up this great rapport. She tells him this story about when she was younger, she was very close with Picasso. Picasso used to say, "It's such a pity that the French government doesn't invite us to design the major monuments: the Eiffel Tower, the Arc de Triomphe. If we were to get the ability to design something like this, Sonia, you would design an incredible archway."

André hears this story and immediately looks at Sonia and says, "Well, then that's that. You should design the archway that guests would enter into the park." Sonja sketched something out, and she was the first artist on board. Then fast forward to the mid-'80s, André secured funding from this publication called Neue Revue. At that point, he really kicked off this global tour, where he came out to New York City and began recruiting artists. Through an introduction by Andy Warhol, he met with Roy Lichtenstein, who immediately told him, "You got to meet with David Hockney."

Before he flew out to LA to meet with David Hockney, he connected with Keith Haring, Kenny Scharf, and Jean-Michel Basquiat. Based on the fact that he already had Salvador Dalí, Sonia Delaunay, and he was getting introductions by the likes of Andy Warhol, artists paid attention. One of the stories that André recounts is he talks about, "How did I convince them? How did I people to buy into this idea?" He would ask every artist, have you ever been a child? Well, they all would have to look at him and say yes.

Then he said, "Well, when you were a child, did you ever go to a Luna Park?" and they would all say yes, of course. He said, "Did you like it?" and they said, "Yes, I loved it." He said, "Well, then that's that. Would you be interested in designing a ride, game, or attraction?" For some of these artists, like Keith Haring, we have this incredible video footage of Keith Haring at Luna Luna. He talks about the way that from the moment that he met André, this was a fantasy. Something that he would love to do and be a part of, and it dates back to his first experience of going to Disney World.

Alison Stewart: Nice. Actually, this leads to our next text. Somebody just texted us, "How kid-friendly is Luna Luna? I have a three-and-a-half-year-old and a two-year-old."

Michael Goldberg: This new experience has all these new layers and new elements that are incredible for children. We have this new commission by a Puerto Rican duo, two brothers. They're incredible. They're called Poncilí Creación. They've designed this space called PonciliLand, where they have these building blocks that they've custom-created, and guest kids and adults are able to create their own fantastical creations. You can even wear some of them.

They've also developed a new cast of characters that were inspired by the original performers that roamed throughout the park in 1987 in Hamburg. These characters interact with guests. It's all improv. They really create these beautiful, special moments. That was a long answer, but the answer to the question is absolutely come on down and--

Alison Stewart: I was there yesterday.

Michael Goldberg: My son is two and a half.

Alison Stewart: It was hilarious.

Michael Goldberg: Yes. My son is two and a half, and every day he's trying to come back to Luna Luna.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Nobles from Washington Heights. Hi. Thanks for calling in.

Nobles: Hey. Thanks so much, Alison. Love your show. Went to Luna Luna last Friday and it was stupendous. My wife and I, we went on a double date. I kind of felt it was an experience zone more than an art show. I'm such a sucker for gift shops too, and it was so cool to find out that you guys had original prints in there from 1987. I'm a huge Keith Haring fan. We bought one. What was really interesting is I'm a huge plaque sucker as well. I love reading all the plaques. One of the things that was really cool is that Drake found us. Like, what did Drake have to do with Luna Luna? It blew my mind. Thank you so much. Amazing experience. Thank you for the show, Alison. Well done. Bye-bye.

Alison Stewart: We're going to get to that in just a minute, but first I want to point out that for a while after Luna Luna first was on, Heller, he sort of wanted to forget Luna Luna initially, way back. What were his issues with it?

Michael Goldberg: I don't think he ever aimed to forget it. It was actually-- After--

Alison Stewart: They're called legal cases.

Michael Goldberg: Yes. After Luna Luna showed in 1987, he had these grand plans to tour Luna Luna around the globe. There was a couple of interested buyers, one of them being the city of Vienna, and there was some public backlash in that. People came in and were writing to the newspapers, "Why should we be spending government money to purchase something like this? This isn't our work." André heard this critique and just said, "Well, forget it. I don't want to do a deal like this. You guys shouldn't have access to something this special."

Another offer comes in, and it's from the Mary and Stephen Birch Foundation. They had read about Luna Luna in Life magazine, which called Luna Luna the most dizzy, dazzling art show on earth. After hearing about it, they had plans to show it in San Diego. Contract was signed, deal was going through, and at the last minute, they tried to pull out of it. It ended up going to litigation. It got tied up in court from the early '90s all the way to 2006. André wins the lawsuit. He gets paid. He transfers the 44 shipping containers filled with this artwork to this foundation, who doesn't know what to do with it because it's been tied up for all these years. They have a ranch in Texas. They park it there. It was--

Alison Stewart: Literally parked in Texas, the containers. Wow.

Michael Goldberg: It was just sitting in this open field. 44 shipping containers containing all of this incredible experience, this magical artwork. In 2019, I stumbled on a-- There was a article about there's somebody who had written an article after seeing the original catalog on a art history blog called Minnie Muse. I see this article and just couldn't believe what I was seeing. I just questioned how could I not know about this. I opened up a new tab and searched Luna Luna, and to my amazement, there wasn't anything there.

I walk into work the next day and I start calling people in the art world, different stages, different age groups, and asking, do you know about Luna Luna? Every single person says, "No, I don't know. What are you talking about? Tell me." At that point, it seemed really odd. How could you have all of these incredible artists, put on an experience like this and nobody knows what it is? I reached out to André Heller, sent him an email, introduced myself, let him know that I have a creative agency and was interested in bringing Luna Luna back, doing a new iteration.

It took a little bit of time to get him on the phone and really get the full story, but eventually, I learned that all of the artwork still existed. It was sitting in these containers in Texas. At that point, start running around taking meetings, and one of the companies that we meet with is Drake's production company, DreamCrew. Luckily, they immediately fell in love in the same way that I did. They saw the vision and a group of us came together. We bought back all of the artwork site unseen, so we didn't know the condition of any of these artworks.

Alison Stewart: Oh my gosh. Opening those containers must have been joyful and also terrifying.

Michael Goldberg: I'll never forget the feeling. The pit in my stomach of just the uncertainty. To go back to the callers, he brought up the posters and some of the merch that we found. That was the very first container that we opened.

Alison Stewart: Oh my gosh.

Michael Goldberg: What was so interesting about that being the first container is that some of the merchandise that was towards the bottom of the container, some sort of rodent got in and ripped up the merchandise to shreds. We're seeing that and I have my hands on my head, just concerned and nervous. Then we continue to open up some of the other boxes, and the merchandise is literally like it came from the factory yesterday. It's in the plastic, it's perfect. It was a real cliffhanger. It wasn't until the-

Alison Stewart: Oh my gosh.

Michael Goldberg: -next day that we come back and we open up the second shipping container. That container had two elements of two of the artworks. There were the figures from the Keith Haring carousel. I'll never forget. One of the handlebars that you would hold onto when you were riding the carousel was sticking out of the wrapping and it was glistening. You could see the shine. It caught the light, and I just immediately knew we were in good shape.

Then the team continued to unpack the container, and there was a Basquiat, the floorboard that people walk up, and the Basquiat Ferris wheel is all white. This floorboard looked like it must have been painted two days ago.

Alison Stewart: Wow.

Michael Goldberg: It looked absolutely beautiful. We continued to unpack things, and luckily enough, everything was in great condition.

Alison Stewart: We are talking about Luna Luna: The Forgotten Fantasy. It's now open at The Shed through Sunday, January 5th. I'm speaking with Michael Goldberg, chief creative director and experience officer. We say experience officer because you've had to make some changes. People can't ride the carousel, but they can engage with Luna Luna. Explain some of the ways that they can engage with it.

Michael Goldberg: First, I'd say Luna Luna is one of these projects that you could see images of it. It's not until you come down and-

Alison Stewart: You got to see it.

Michael Goldberg: -actually experience it that you're going to understand it. Like I mentioned, we've added this new commission, first time it's ever been shown by Poncilí Creación, which is incredible. We also have these roaming performers that really deeply engage with all of our guests. Then there's also this musical soundtrack that's choreographed with the rides, so the rides turn on and animate at different times. The soundtrack that we've added, mixed with the performers, really brings the show to life.

The soundtrack, it features some of the original artists like Miles Davis and Philip Glass, that were included to complement some of the works of the original Luna Luna. We also have a new soundtrack that has been commissioned for this New York City show that features the likes of David Byrne, André 3000, Jamie xx, Standing on the Corner. There is an absolute smash hit by Saya Gray. I don't dance, but the second I hear this song, you definitely get the urge to.

Definitely, it really has expanded into this experience. You get to learn in depth about the story, which I always like to say it's a story that if you got the best writers in the world into a room, I don't know if they could come up with a wild story like this. It's something that's almost too good to be true, but it is. Definitely come down and see what Luna Luna is all about.

Alison Stewart: What was the biggest challenge?

Michael Goldberg: There's a lot of challenges with a project like this, but I would say past the challenges, everyone that touches this project knows how special it is. People are just so excited to give it their all and really come together to do everything they can to have this experience be shared by the public.

Alison Stewart: When you're thinking about access to art-- and this costs money, we should say that. When you're thinking about access to art, what does this show tell you about access to art?

Michael Goldberg: The power of art, and also the-- What I love so much about this show is that you could be an expert and know everything there is to know about all of these artists. You could know nothing about art at all. You don't even know who Basquiat is or who Keith Haring is, Salvador Dalí. You're going to come to Luna Luna, and I guarantee you're going to walk away with a smile, whether you're the art expert or you're the person that isn't familiar and doesn't really know about art.

It's rare that you have an experience that really speaks to both audiences. You could also be all different age groups, 10, 20, 80, and I guarantee Luna Luna is going to leave a smile on your face. One of my favorite things is just walking around and talking to people. What I find so fascinating is that it's so rare that people talk about their favorite element of the show being the same thing. Everyone finds something that's personal to them, whether it's one of the moon drawings or an interaction that they had with one of the performers. It's really rare that you have an experience that touches such a wide mix of people, and that they leave all loving different things.

Alison Stewart: What's your favorite part?

Michael Goldberg: Tough question. I absolutely love the André Heller wedding chapel, just to see all the different ways that people engage with it. At André Heller's wedding chapel, André originally created it because 1987 when it originally showed, Berlin Wall is still up. People couldn't freely-- Well, basically created it so people get married to whomever or whatever they wanted, and we have kept that true today. Come on down, people could get married, and--

Alison Stewart: It's really fun. People get married.

Michael Goldberg: Exactly.

Alison Stewart: Luna Luna: A Forgotten Fantasy is at The Shed through Sunday, January 5th. I've been speaking with the show's chief creative and experience officer, Michael Goldberg. Thank you for coming in, Michael.

Michael Goldberg: Thank you, Alison.