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Kousha Navidar: You're listening to All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. It's Arab American Heritage Month, so let's talk about one of the best parts of Arabic culture, the food. A little over 50 years ago, Madelain Farah took some of her mother's recipes from Lebanon and compiled them into a cookbook called Lebanese Cuisine. This was in the '70s, a long time before hummus became a beloved snack, a beloved snack of mine for the record, and falafel, a staple of late-night street food.

Now, familiarity with the cuisine may have changed, but the recipes have stayed the same, well, sort of. Madelain's daughter, Leila Habib-Kirske, has taken her mother's cookbook and retested the recipes, updating some of them for today's home cook. The recipes range from the familiar, like tahini sauce, to dishes that might be new to home cooks who maybe aren't as well versed in Lebanese Cuisine, like kibbeh nayeh. There is something in there for everyone. Lebanese Cuisine: More than 185 Simple, Delicious, Authentic Recipes is available now, and I am joined by Leila Habib-Kirske to discuss. Leila, hi, welcome to the show.

Leila Habib-Kirske: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Listeners, we'd love to have you as part of this conversation too. Did you own or do you own a copy of the original Lebanese Cuisine? What's your relationship like with that cookbook? Or maybe you're Lebanese yourself, what's a favorite family recipe that more people should know about? Or maybe you've got a question for Leila to help you perfect your Arabic cooking, we're here for all of it.

We're taking calls about Lebanese Cuisine. Hit us up, call us, text us. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC or you can DM us on Instagram or hit us up on X. We're @allofitwnyc. Leila, this is an updated version of your mom's cookbook, which is actually your grandmother's recipes. How did the idea to make a cookbook come about? I understand it involved some very expensive phone bills.

Leila Habib-Kirske: Exactly. My mom grew up in Portland, Oregon where her family was from, and went to Washington, DC to work for the State Department. Think about this back in the '50s, '60s. She learned how to cook and so she would call my grandmother collect because she had never learned. My grandfather at one point had just enough and said, "Either you learn how to cook or you pay for your own phone calls."

Many years later, she literally did that. I was really young when this book was put together, but I literally watched my mother in my grandmother's kitchen and think of a 1970s kitchen with 1950s equipment capturing stuff as it was going into the pot. This is really your grandmother's food, just a total home cooking cooking.

Kousha Navidar: I can imagine that a Lebanese cookbook, 50 years ago, maybe seemed, I hate using this word but, exotic, I guess, to white Americans way back in the day. What was the reception of the cookbook like at that time?

Leila Habib-Kirske: When you think about even how it was distributed, it was mail order. It was like you peel off from the back of the book and fill in your little form and send a check. Mostly it was sold through, at first, to church fairs and word of mouth and it just spread that way. Then over time, she was able to get it in Barnes and Noble and some of these other bookstore, bookstores. Total word of mouth, really spreading through the Middle Eastern community.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, wow. Do you have any memories of your grandmother or your grandmother's food?

Leila Habib-Kirske: Oh my gosh, yes. I grew up in my grandmother's kitchen. I think about things of like making kibbeh or things like-- Rather than having a food processor, she literally had a meat grinder where she would force the meat through and crank it through. It just seems so medieval today compared to having a food processor or a mixer. That and then pounding things to smash them in a mortar and pestle, total old-school stuff.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking about Lebanese Cuisine. We're here with Leila Habib-Kirske. She is one of the authors of Lebanese Cuisine: More Than 185 Simple, Delicious, Authentic Recipes. We want to hear from you. Did you own a copy of the original Lebanese Cuisine? What was your relationship like with that cookbook? Or maybe you're Lebanese yourself and you have a favorite recipe you'd like to share, or a question for Leila, we're here for all of it. Give us a call. Send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC.

We'd love to talk about all things Lebanese Cuisine. We're going to open up our phones in a second. Leila, I'd have to imagine revisiting this book, updating it, probably a lot of emotions come up from that. What did going back and looking at this cookbook again do for you in terms of the emotions that you felt?

Leila Habib-Kirske: It was fun to revisit some things. Baking bread is one of those things I used to do with my grandmother. When she would make it, she'd always make me a little tiny loaf for myself and I got to dip it in olive oil, which seems so normal today but seems so exotic at the time. It was that special time that I would sit with her and just talk and then get my own little piece of bread.

Then doing that, and it got to the point where I've perfected it. My first cuts, I could just hear her yelling at me like, "It's not supposed to look like that," in your own head. Then some things like just making kibbeh where I think about that as an event, a holiday meal. Making it yourself brings back those memories of those big holiday celebrations.

Kousha Navidar: We just got a text actually about kibbeh that I want to point out.

Leila Habib-Kirske: Oh, here we go.

Kousha Navidar: Great timing. You brought it up.

Leila Habib-Kirske: Here we go.

Kousha Navidar: It's wonderful. It reads, "I grew up in Montreal, Canada, where there's a huge Lebanese community. I miss the Lebanese spots there. There are too few here. I was used to raw kibbeh, but when I came to the US, it's always cooked. Raw kibbeh is much better." George from the Upper East Side. Georges, I think, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, from the Upper East Side. Leila, what's your opinion? Raw versus cooked difference preference.

Leila Habib-Kirske: I like it raw. I'm in the Northwest, and I tend to get my meat from a farm here. I know where it's coming from, and so I feel pretty confident when I make it raw. It's funny, my husband has a fear factor. He just can't do it. My son and I will just make some to cook, and then we'll enjoy some raw. This is the way my grandmother used to do it with some green onions and some tomatoes and a little olive oil on it.

Then, inevitably my husband will come along, but he's like, "Oh, is that going to be okay?" It really is tasty. If you like a steak tartare, it's the same thing, and you got to know where your meat's coming from.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. Is that part of how you updated this book? What were some of the updates you knew you wanted to make when you went through and started testing the recipes?

Leila Habib-Kirske: There's a few things. Some things, like a hummus, where there was no food processor back in the day, so you really have to go through the recipes and say, you don't need to smash this by hand or run it through a food mill, which you could, but you've got the food processor there. Then some things, again, I was talking about my grandmother's stove, it was really old. Today's equipment is just a little bit different.

When I would retest recipes, it's like, "Okay, this is taking a little bit more time." I would note the new time it would take to bake. A lot of things are like bake until done, which if you're familiar with cooking, you know what you're expecting. If you don't, and you use those original times, which my grandmother's stove must have been hot, just really hot-

Kousha Navidar: Public radio, good catch. [laughs]

Leila Habib-Kirske: -it takes a little bit more time. Exactly.

Kousha Navidar: We've got a few callers. Let's go to one quickly before we go to break. Hey, Monique in Brooklyn, welcome to the show.

Monique: Hey, thank you for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. What's your story?

Monique: My story, so first, I'm always listening to NPR and when I hear anything about Lebanon, especially if it's a positive thing, I'm always so excited, especially about food because that's probably one of the things that we are proud of as Lebanese, food and [unintelligible 00:09:15]. They both start with an F, I guess. Definitely, I guess, and she was talking about the kibbeh nayeh. I was like, "This is my favorite food."

I never eat it in the US as well because the meat we get back home is always so fresh. You go to the butcher, everything's done for the day and nothing is frozen. We trust our sources better. Although I figured out how to get some good ingredients here and some trusted sources, especially in Brooklyn, we have Sahadi's here who are distant cousins of mine as well. I'm able to get all my ingredients and just be connected to my home.

I guess what I'm trying to say also, as Lebanese, food is love, and that's why we have the mezze. We have all of this shared food culture. When we give you food, when we share food with you, when you come visit us, you're eating. It doesn't matter if you ate before or not. We'd like to share this food with you, and that's part of our love and appreciation for people.

Kousha Navidar: Monique, thank you.

Monique: I guess I don't have a [unintelligible 00:10:27]. Thank you.

Kousha Navidar: Thank you so much for that call. I love that comment. I love that comment about love, and Leila, I heard you nodding your head.

Leila Habib-Kirske: Yes, absolutely.

Kousha Navidar: Listen, we've got to go to a quick break, but when we come back, I would love to pick up on the other thing Monique was talking about, which is kibbeh nayeh and a few of the other recipes in the book. Plus, we'll take some more of your calls. We are talking with Leila Habib-Kirske about the book Lebanese Cuisine: More than 185 Simple, Delicious, Authentic Recipes. We're taking your calls about Lebanese cooking. Give us a call 212-433-9692. We'll be right back after this.

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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. We are talking about Lebanese Cuisine in honor of Arab American Heritage Month, and also because Lebanese food is delicious. We are here with Leila Habib-Kirske, author of the book Lebanese Cuisine: More than 185 Simple, Delicious, Authentic Recipes. Listeners, we are taking your questions, your comments, your experiences with Lebanese cooking, Lebanese food.

Did you own a copy of the original Lebanese Cuisine or what's your relationship like with the cookbook? What questions do you have? Send us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Leila, we heard before the break Monique mentioned kibbeh, and you yourself mentioned kibbeh right at the top. I want to get into this because there's a whole chapter dedicated just to kibbeh, which you call, "one of the prizes of Lebanese Cuisine." For those who aren't familiar, can you just say what is kibbeh?

Leila Habib-Kirske: What you probably think of is the beef or lamb kibbeh, which is basically meat mixed with bulgur wheat and onions, a little bit of spice. Then oftentimes it's either layered with what's called a hashweh, which is more ground meat and onions and spices and some pine nuts. You can layer it in a casserole or you can make it into balls. That's the most common thing, and then like we were talking about, you could eat it raw.

There are a bunch of vegetarian options. There's a potato and a pumpkin kibbeh. Those are usually layered with caramelized onions and it's a really good vegetarian or vegan option. One of the people that I was chatting with on Facebook right after the book came out was bemoaning that the recipe in the book wasn't like her grandmother's, that one on the pumpkin kibbeh. She was saying that they layered it with pomegranate molasses and really perked it up.

I thought, "Wow, I wish my grandmother's version was like that." That sounded really good. The point being it's a whole genre of mixing vegetables or meat with bulgur wheat and onions and spices, and it can be either meat-based or vegetarian or vegan-based.

Kousha Navidar: We've got a caller who I think has a question about kibbeh. We've got Robert in Manhattan. Hi, Robert, welcome to the show.

Robert: Hi, how are you? Thanks for taking my call. I'm a Lebanese German Greek American and my grandmother, Lebanese grandmother, used to make baked kibbeh. She used to make it in a rectangular glass dish and cut it into squares. Now I've been able to find fried kibbeh in Manhattan, but I'm still at a loss to be able to find good baked kibbeh. Making it yourself, I think it's daunting for me. If there's any suggestions of restaurants in Manhattan or anywhere in the metropolitan area, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Kousha Navidar: Robert, thank you so much for calling and for sharing that. Baked kibbeh, Leila, in New York City, do you have any sense of that?

Leila Habib-Kirske: I'm in Seattle, so I don't know. I would say don't think it's daunting because it's really not that hard. You're just making the meat mixture and then the filling mixture on the side, and then think of it almost like Play-Doh. You're taking part of the meat mixture, patting it in the pan, layering the other fried mixture on, and then patting some more of the meat mixture on top. It's really not hard at all.

Then I think probably what your grandmother did was score it into triangles and then bake it. If you don't mind getting your hands dirty a little bit, it's not very hard at all. Don't be scared. It's in the book.

Kousha Navidar: Robert, it's worth trying out. It's in the book. Hey, listeners, if you have a sense of where you can find baked kibbeh to help out Robert as well, shoot us a text, 212-433-9692. If we get it, Robert, I'll read it on air. We've also got Kim in Ridgewood, New Jersey. Hey, Kim, welcome to the show.

Kim: Hi. My question is years and years ago, I lived in Omaha, Nebraska, and I worked at a local Lebanese restaurant. We had the best waffle and everything, but they made this flatbread and it was like their family recipe. I guess they called it pita, but every time I go to a Lebanese restaurant or anywhere else, the bread is never this good. It was kind of pliable. Everybody else it seems like uses the bag stuff, bag pita, and it's dry and it's not the same. This restaurant is no longer around so I can't reach out to them. I've been thinking about it for years. I've searched and searched and searched to try to find a recipe. I'm looking for some help.

Kousha Navidar: Thanks, Kim. Leila, any sense?

Leila Habib-Kirske: Oh yes. We've got the same problem. I grew up in Portland where there's a bigger Middle Eastern community and there was a bakery. We always had really good bread available. When I moved to Seattle, the same thing the bread tasted like cardboard, you get the bag pita, and there's just something about it. I don't think even in its first state tasted as good, but there is a recipe in the book for pita.

I think there's a couple of things that make it a little soft and pliable that you're probably used to, which is there's milk in the dough. Although one of my aunts doesn't use milk. She just swaps water and olive oil for it to make it soft. Then making it isn't that hard. It just takes a couple of steps, and it's the making the dough, let it rest, of course, and rise. Then you roll it into balls, let it rise, and then you roll it. Then let it sit like little pizzas, and then you just throw it in the oven.

It's a bunch of the steps, but it's so worth it. What I do is I'll bake it one like a Saturday afternoon when it's not so busy, put it in the freezer, and then you can just take a disk out whenever you want. I'll pop on the toaster, and my brother is probably dying here. You've got fresh bread all the time. and it's that nice soft probably dough that you're used to.

Kousha Navidar: Kim, thanks so much for that call. It was a great question because it's right in the book as well. Leila, I'd love to talk about dessert before we go much further because it's something that might seem ambitious for a home cook specifically baklava. Would you recommend trying to make baklava at home even if it seems intimidating like we've heard other callers talk about with other elements of Lebanese Cuisine?

Leila Habib-Kirske: Something like that is a little trickier, and I think you got to make it for the first time, just give yourself a little good bit of grace and time and just know that phyllo is a little tricky and you've got to have all your elements there. Once you get that technique going, it's just about not tearing the dough and brushing it. I think that's the trickiest part because other than that you're just rolling it and putting in a pan. I would say give yourself a little bit of time the first time and you'll probably realize it's not necessarily hard as much as there's just little tricks to just, I would say especially with the phyllo dough being kind with that.

Kousha Navidar: My colleague and a producer on the show, Jordan, says that the dessert her family loves, and they're Lebanese, is ka'ak, which are little cake donuts. Are these easy to make at home?

Leila Habib-Kirske: Yes. That one that's probably a good start right there. It almost looks like a little bagel, and it's not too sweet. A lot of times it has a rose water fragrance to it. I like it, especially with coffee. It's the basic dough shaping it and then baking just like a regular cookie. It's something that's just not too sweet and really delicious.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking about Lebanese Cuisine. We're talking with Leila Habib-Kirske who is one of the authors of Lebanese Cuisine: More than 185 Simple, Delicious, Authentic Recipes. We're getting a lot of calls, a lot of texts. If you have a question, or you have a favorite recipe, a favorite food, give us a call. We're at 212- 433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC. I see that we have Joshua from Westfield, New Jersey on the line. Hi Joshua, welcome to the show.

Joshua: Hi, thanks for taking my call. Leila, great to hear all your stories. I grew up with my best [inaudible 00:20:18] Syrian, so I was exposed to a lot of that food when I was young. Our son, his partner, she's Lebanese, so she cooks Lebanese at their place. We love Lebanese food, but I have a question. Considering that Lebanon is on the water or part of it is on the water, I've never seen Lebanese seafood. I'd love to know if any of those recipes are in your book or if you could talk a little bit about that.

Kousha Navidar: Joshua, thank you so much. Yes, go ahead, Leila.

Leila Habib-Kirske: It's a great question. Even growing up, we didn't really eat a lot of fish interestingly enough, or when we did it was fried little fishes, which I still to this day can't quite do, but what was interesting is there was a whole chapter in the book on fish. As I was retesting everything and photographing it for the book, I tried a bunch of them and I'm like, why did we not eat this growing up? There's a salmon with spinach on it and sage. It's like I never knew that there was sage in Lebanese food. There's just quite a few different recipes and I was surprised that they're in the book, but I don't remember eating them growing up, even being in the northwest close to all this good fish.

Kousha Navidar: Why do you think that is?

Leila Habib-Kirske: I don't know. I don't know whether it was cost or access potentially. At least where I'm now, there's all these fish markets, but I don't really remember that. I think back in the '70s, you just had supermarket fish, and I don't think my grandmother was going to go there.

Kousha Navidar: Well, you know what? I want to pause here for a second because we got some texts in right now about baked kibbeh and I think it was Kevin if I'm remembering correctly that was asking about where you could find it. Kevin, if you're still listening maybe this will help you out. One text reads, "The baked kibbeh at the Damascus Bakery on Atlantic Ave just next to Sahadi is delicious as are the Lahmajun." I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong, et cetera. "And baklavas and especially the triangular pita, very chewy, not floury. Also the stuffed grape leaf and cabbage."

Damascus Bakery on Atlantic Avenue seems like a place you could check out, Kevin. Also, another text, Buddy from Brooklyn says, "Go to Bay Ridge it has a huge Lebanese and Arab community all with great restaurants. Fresh tabbouleh is always the best. Regarding baked kibbeh, Tanoreen in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, it's delicious." Kevin, I hope you're writing that down. You can check out the segment later on podcast if you want to.

Hey, listeners, thanks for calling it out. One big community in New York City, we really appreciate it. Leila, we're looking to wrap up here. Are there any other recipes we didn't get to that you'd like to highlight?

Leila Habib-Kirske: The one thing I would just say is the food is just so filled with vegetables, so if you look at the salad section of Fattoush and then just anything with fresh cucumbers and such, we're getting to be at that time, almost summer, not quite there yet, but eat your veggies, and there's lots of different options in the book.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Since you grew up cooking with your mom, is there a a recipe that you think would be particularly fun to make with a young person in your life?

Leila Habib-Kirske: One of my favorite recipes is the stuffed eggplant. I don't do it the way-- like it's harder to get those long skinny ones, but the big globe eggplant is usually what I just slice and fill it like a sandwich, and so you can definitely have fun with someone young. You can slice it and have them layer the filling like a little sandwich and pour tomato sauce on. Super easy and then just throw it in the oven for a good period of time until the eggplant is nice and soft. It's almost like making a little sandwich, but it's a little more sophisticated. The outcome is a little more exciting for a young person.

Kousha Navidar: After going through this book and looking at all of the recipes, maybe seeing ones that you had forgotten about, ones that you used to love, is there any item that you rediscovered a love for and that you find yourself making again now?

Leila Habib-Kirske: Oh boy. One recipe that, and I'm going to forget the name of it. Too early in the morning for me, but it was a funny story when we were photographing. It was one that I had never made before, and it's basically taking old pita bread. You layer it with chickpeas and a yogurt sauce. The funny thing is, myself and one of my photographer buddies did the work, but my son and his fiancé did the food styling, we had an assembly line going and they had just finished this one dish, sorry, I can't remember the name of it.

I'm like, "We're ready for the next one." They weren't ready because they were stuffing their mouth with the toasted pita and yogurt. It was just dripping off of their fingers. They're like, "This is so good." I thought, "I don't remember eating it, but it was so delicious."

Kousha Navidar: Well, we can check it out in the book if you'd like. We were here-

Leila Habib-Kirske: Right there in the picture.

Kousha Navidar: -with Leila Habib-Kirske. The book Lebanese Cuisine: More than 185 Simple, Delicious Recipes. Leila, thank you so much.

Leila Habib-Kirske: Thank you.

Kousha Navidar: We will be right back with more All Of It. We'll be talking about a new play, stick with us. We'll be right back after this.

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