Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. The Hollywood Foreign Press announced the nominees for the Golden Globe Awards. The award show, which had its own share of controversies and was on hiatus at one point, will air live on TV and streaming on January 11th. Even if the Globes were a little less serious than the Oscars, they have often been a harbinger of what will come on the big show.

For instance, will it become apparent which actor is set to sweep or which indie sleeper might end up a big surprise winner, or how much have the streamers become major players as opposed to the studios? Of course, which celebrity who drinks too much and is going to revel in too long? Our next guest is New York Times projectionist, columnist, and friend of the show, Kyle Buchanan. He writes about film and covers all the award show from Cannes and the Oscars. He's here with us today to get us up to speed. Hi, Kyle.

Kyle Buchanan: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to hear from you. What film or performance stood out to you this year. Our phone number is 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Give us a call and let us know who you should think would be in the running this year for one of those statuettes. Our number is 212-433-WNYC. In your article on Monday, Kyle, you wrote, "Are the Golden Globes getting hip?" What do you mean by that?

Kyle Buchanan: I'm almost horrified that this is happening.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Kyle Buchanan: As you alluded, for a long time, the Globes were somewhat kookier. You could count on them for a lot of left-field nominations, sometimes nominations that defied the conventional wisdom. It was always an interesting tension that, because of their place on the awards calendar, they did end up being important. To a certain extent, not to borrow a metaphor from one of the movies in contention this year, but it felt a little Wizard of Ozian in that you weren't meant to look at the wacky voters behind the curtain. After recent controversies, they cleaned up their act somewhat. They kicked out a lot of the odder eccentrics, a lot of the old timers in the group.

Alison Stewart: That's a nice way to put it. The eccentrics.

Kyle Buchanan: I could put it a lot less nice, but I've got to meet radio guidelines. They invited in a lot of younger, hipper members. I was shocked to find that the Globes that usually would go head over heels for a celebrity would be willing to exclude somebody like Sydney Sweeney, who was hoping to get a nomination for Christy, where she plays a boxer, and instead would nominate Eva Victor, who is much less known, but had a great, well-regarded A24 indie called Sorry, Baby. I'm like, "Who are the Globes now?"

Alison Stewart: "Who are you?" [chuckles]

Kyle Buchanan: My friend Nate Jones put it well. He's like, "If the Golden Globes are not throwing a nomination to a critically reviled show, like all's fair, then what are we even doing here?"

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Kyle Buchanan: Part of the fun of the Globes is that mix of high and low brow. We're going to have to hope, just like you said, that people get drunk enough at the ceremony to make up for it.

Alison Stewart: Maybe they need to have a Pia Zadora Award just for her, right?

Kyle Buchanan: Yes. Well, yes, they've definitely got some kooky awards, but on the whole, I would say the nominations were surprisingly in line with the conventional wisdom this year.

Alison Stewart: I was going to say, you are going to be reporting on a slew of awards from now for the next three months. The SAG Awards, the Critics' Choice Awards. How is the Golden Globes trying to set itself up to be a little bit different, or maybe they're not?

Kyle Buchanan: I think that, in some ways, they don't want to be different. They just want to be first. There's a lot to be said for all of these early awards groups. If they seem like they start the ball rolling for something that eventually picks up more mass as it rolls down the hill and ends up winning an Oscar, they'd love that.

Last year was an interesting case because Demi Moore, who won the Golden Globe, delivered such a great speech about feeling undervalued and how The Substance brought her back to prominence, that a lot of people thought she won the Oscar simply by giving that speech. It did give her a lot of momentum. Ultimately, the Best Actress Oscar went to Mikey Madison for Anora. I bet you the Globes would have loved it if Demi had won that because it would have made the attendance, the speechifying that happens at the Globe ceremony feel even more important.

Alison Stewart: Nikki Glaser is set to return this year. It's her second year hosting after what was Jo Koy's less-than-successful outing, shall we say, in 2024. How do you think she'll do?

Kyle Buchanan: I think she'll do fine. It was interesting being in the room last year. She's a much smoother hosting presence certainly than Jo Koy was. She's not afraid to get a little bit antagonistic, a little sparky, certainly not to the level that Ricky Gervais used to. It was interesting being in that room last year, how even the lightest barb jokes didn't always land with that crowd. I don't think they're used to being jostled in that manner. I'm hoping that this year, it's not about Nikki's growth. It's about that ballroom's growth. I hope people will learn to take a joke a little bit better.

Alison Stewart: My guest is New York Times award show columnist Kyle Buchanan. We're talking about the Golden Globe nominations and what they say about the upcoming awards season. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What performance stood out to you this year? Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. This text says, "Sinners should sweep." What do you think?

Kyle Buchanan: Love Sinners. I have a profile of the director, Ryan Coogler, in the paper. It's online today, in the paper tomorrow. I think it's terrific, and I think it will get a ton of nominations throughout the season. I think that when it comes to the eventual Best Picture race, Sinners is right up there with One Battle After Another and Hamnet.

Alison Stewart: Ooh, tell us something that's in the article that we should read. A teaser of the article.

Kyle Buchanan: What I find really interesting about Ryan Coogler, who directed this, he also directed the Black Panther films, is it is rare that you find someone who is at that uppermost level of hit-making, who has had the incredible billion-dollar successes that he's had, who isn't somewhat worse because of it. Worse as a personality, more self-regarding, more narcissistic, more closed off.

I've watched it happen to a bunch of people as they've succeeded in Hollywood. Coogler's ability to hold on to his humility in the face of everything that is happening is compelling. I think it's the story of that article. I think it's no wonder that he gets along so well with Kevin Feige, who runs Marvel Studios, because they are truly the two most influential, powerful figures I can think of in Hollywood who seem like regular people.

Alison Stewart: This is a question for you, Kyle. "I hope Wagner Moura wins for best actor. Does Kyle think he has a chance against Michael B. Jordan?"

Kyle Buchanan: I think Wagner Moura is probably going to win the Golden Globe for Best Actor in a drama, so there's at least something that you can look forward to. If the listeners don't know, Wagner Moura is an incredible Brazilian star. You might have seen him in American productions like Narcos or Civil War. He is the lead of a Brazilian film called The Station Agent. I'm sorry, The Secret Agent.

Alison Stewart: The Secret Agent.

Kyle Buchanan: He is really incredible in this, and he's out there doing the rounds. I think a lot of people are watching this and appreciating that performance. That performance is a gainer. We'll see if it goes the same route as last year's big Brazilian hope, and that was Fernanda Torres in the movie I'm Still Here. Both of those did very well at the Golden Globes last year and sparked a pretty robust Oscar campaign.

Alison Stewart: Yes, he was here last week. He's a terrific interview because he can go into the politics in a second. He doesn't just stay with one topic about the film.

Kyle Buchanan: He has one of the best voices ever, so I can imagine on mic, it sounded incredible. He makes me sound like Gilbert Gottfried.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] On the other hand, I will say Michael B. Jordan plays two characters in the film.

Kyle Buchanan: Yes, and he's great, too. Honestly, this year's Best Actor race is really exciting and filled with a lot of major actors. We named Wagner and Michael B. Jordan, who are both terrific, but there's also Leonardo DiCaprio. He is the lead of the film that I think most people in the industry expect has the best shot at winning Best Picture. That's One Battle After Another.

There's also Timothée Chalamet. He's really terrific in Marty Supreme. It comes out on Christmas Day. The Oscars tend to be a little resistant when it comes to awarding younger actors. Younger men, I should say. They love giving Oscars to young women. A guy under 30 has only won the Best Actor Oscar once in the entirety of the Oscars, so we'll see. Certainly, Chalamet puts up a pretty great case for himself.

Alison Stewart: Is that Adrien Brody?

Kyle Buchanan: That's Adrien Brody for The Pianist.

Alison Stewart: We got a text that says, "Jessie Buckley in Hamnet." Another one says, "Sean Penn has to win Best Actor. Transformational." Well, that would be category fraud if he were in Best Actor, but--

Kyle Buchanan: There's a lot of category fraud. Yes, Sean is running and supporting, and I think he's probably the front-runner, as is Jessie Buckley in Best Actress for Hamnet. She's playing the wife of William Shakespeare, going through a personal tragedy, and she's devastating and incredible. This year, strangely, the Best Actress race is a little bit thinner than it normally is. Best Actor is robust. Best Actress is thin. Welcome to Trump's America, I guess.

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] Well, except for Rose Byrne. Rose Byrne is amazing.

Kyle Buchanan: Rose Byrne. Look, when I say "thin," I don't mean to denigrate any of the contenders because they're terrific. Rose Byrne is incredible in If I Had Legs I'd Kick You. There are a lot of really wonderful actresses that I'd love to see. Maybe it feels like there's an opportunity to get some amazing people in there. Jennifer Lawrence is great in Die My Love. I loved Amanda Seyfried in The Testament of Ann Lee, where she plays a woman that basically founded the Shaker religion. There's a lot of fun options, interesting options, and further afield options, if Oscar voters care to look.

Alison Stewart: Here's a question for you. I don't know if you have the answer for it, but we were here, and we were talking about the division of comedy and drama and how both are defined, like One Battle After Another is a comedy, as is If I Had Legs I'd Kick You. I have seen both. Would not describe them as comedies necessarily.

Kyle Buchanan: I would. I would. Okay, this is definitely a matter of contention.

Alison Stewart: Okay, good. Let's hear you.

Kyle Buchanan: A lot of the time, it involves strategy. Oscar strategists, they're paid to look at this field and say, "We've got a better shot at this category. We could win." A win is a win. People will forget the categorization. Sometimes I find that people are-- they look down their nose at comedy. I remember when Get Out was nominated for Best Comedy at the Golden Globes. The director, Jordan Peele, it seemed to rub him the wrong way, even though I'm sure he was part of the meetings that designated that as the category to run in. I don't think it's bad because I think comedies can be great and expansive.

You can have comedies that have thriller elements, that are more dramatic, that even make you cry at the end. If they're making you laugh, as a lot of these movies are, certainly as One Battle After Another did, Benicio del Toro getting stopped and saying a few small beers, or Leonardo DiCaprio crawling across the floor of that dojo, it's funny. There is a heightened sense of humor to that movie, even when it comes to the names of the characters. Colonel Steven Lockjaw, Perfidia Beverly Hills. It takes place in that heightened world. To me, there's no shame in calling it a comedy, even though, obviously, it incorporates so many other elements.

Alison Stewart: I won't argue with you, but I will say--

Kyle Buchanan: No, go ahead. Please do.

Alison Stewart: No, no, I will say it. I thought that the subject matter of both films was so serious.

Kyle Buchanan: Well, I find that sometimes that is where the sparkiest comedies can come from. I love it when a comedy is willing to take on things that are so daring. In One Battle After Another, you have a white supremacist group called the Christmas Adventurers, which seems so absurd and comedic, except, essentially, they're analogous in some ways to the Proud Boys, another absurdly titled activist group in this country. In certain ways, I think it does reflect the tone of our current moment to be as absurd as One Battle After Another dares to be.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about what they are calling drama. Frankenstein. It recently picked up a Gotham Award. The Secret Agent, which you mentioned. Smashing Machine with Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. He got a lot of praise for his performance, kind of tanked a little bit at the box office. Sinners, Hamnet, Sentimental Value, and It Was Just an Accident. Which one of those is surprising to you?

Kyle Buchanan: I think The Smashing Machine got a little bit of a bump, getting actors nominated, and making it into the Best Drama category. I personally really like this movie. I think that for audiences, they didn't get maybe what they thought they were going to get. Maybe because of the marketing, or maybe because Dwayne Johnson was in it. They expected a wrestling drama or even some sort of gut-punching sports inspirational film. It's really more of a slice-of-life movie.

It is a movie where Dwayne Johnson and Emily Blunt have a long scene where they're debating how to take care of a cactus. I was interested in it from a performance point of view, from a fly-on-the-wall point of view. I know that the director, Benny Safdie, was really inspired by a documentary that was made about the real-life characters who inspired this film. I think that's the approach he wanted to take. It's maybe not an approach that audiences found inviting, but I think that there's some worthy stuff there.

Alison Stewart: We're talking to Kyle Buchanan, New York Times award show columnist, and we are talking about the Golden Globe nominations and what they say about the upcoming awards season. Listeners, what film or performance stood out to you this year? Who or what you would you like to see walk away with the statue? Give us a call. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Okay, so for the musical comedy category, we have Bugonia, One Battle After Another, and Marty Supreme, which we've even talked about, but Wicked: For Good isn't on that list?

Kyle Buchanan: That was a big surprise.

Alison Stewart: That was a big surprise.

Kyle Buchanan: Certainly, the old Globes would never have let that happen. I think Wicked: For Good is in a really interesting position this year. The last film was a major Oscar success, a major success by any measure, was nominated for several Oscars, including Best Picture. This year, it feels like it's somewhat more on the bubble. It isn't just that I think franchises have a harder time recapturing glory.

Dune: Part Two, which I personally thought was a better film than the first one, got fewer nominations. There is a little bit of a sense of "been there, done that" with Oscar voters these days. Even with those headwinds put aside, the film didn't get reviews that were as strong as its predecessor. I wonder if that means that come Oscar nomination morning, we might see some more significant snubs than even just Best Picture.

Alison Stewart: Bugonia is a reunion of Yorgos Lanthimos and Emma Stone. They won big for Poor Things, a film about this tech millionaire who may or may not be an alien. How has this been playing with audiences?

Kyle Buchanan: This is an interesting year because we've got a lot of major directors and actors re-teaming, a lot of projects that look incredibly enticing on paper. Yorgos Lanthimos and Emma Stone had a major hit in every possible way with Poor Things. I don't think this is playing quite as well. It's not as big of a box office or critical hit. It doesn't seem to be that word-of-mouth movie necessarily either. Something like the Golden Globes recognizing it in the categories it did gives it some more life.

I think this is also a provocative Oscar season because when it comes to the Best Picture race, there are five really strong movies, one or two other ones that I would put near that tier. Then it is wide open space, that is space that Bugonia could claim, that Wicked: For Good could claim, or it could be a film that comes out of left field. The films that made it into Globe's contention, I think they're going to be crossing their fingers and hoping they can make it into that final 10 at Oscar until those nominations are read.

Alison Stewart: You mentioned Marty Supreme. Can you give me the elevator pitch of Marty Supreme?

Kyle Buchanan: I can do my best. I think even the people involved with Marty Supreme, it would be difficult to give an elevator pitch, because if I tell you that this is a period comedy, drama, thriller where Timothée Chalamet plays a real-life table tennis champion, you'd say to yourself, "Okay, what?" That really is just a clothes hanger on which they have managed to put just about every item you'd find in your closet.

This is a rambunctious movie in the vein of uncut gems. It's directed by Josh Safdie, who co-directed that film. It has romance and sex, including with Gwyneth Paltrow, who returns to the screen. It's got adventure. It's got its own inspiring sports sequences that just happen to be table tennis, but you'll never have found table tennis more exciting. It is eccentrically cast. It is a crazy odyssey. It is just one of those films where even if I set up what I think you're going to get out of it, I'm barely preparing you.

Alison Stewart: Also, the press tour has been wild.

Kyle Buchanan: It has been, yes.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting.

Kyle Buchanan: It has been both those things, yes. Timothée Chalamet, I've known him and followed his career since he basically burst onto the scene with Call Me by Your Name. I think that playing this character in Marty Supreme, who is so confident in himself, so overwhelmingly confident that it can almost come off as abrasive. He's internalized the desire for greatness that Marty has. We saw it last year when he won the SAG Award for A Complete Unknown, his Bob Dylan movie.

He was talking about how he aspires to be one of the greats, one of the legends. Having now seen Marty Supreme, that's Marty talking, or at least the Marty side of Timothy. I think that Marty's side is leading on this publicity tour. He is out there flacking this movie in a way that we don't often see with actors. That is more common to maybe a musician like Kanye West, a Tyler, the Creator. He's not afraid to be brash, bold, a little bit full of himself, and to wear eccentric things and do eccentric things.

Alison Stewart: We got a text that says, "What about Sorry, Baby?"

Kyle Buchanan: Well, yes, so Sorry, Baby is a Globes player now. Eva Victor getting in over Sydney Sweeney. I was very heartened to see that, that it's a really great movie. This is one of the things that I find really inspiring about awards season at its best, movies that are smaller that need a little bit more attention. Certainly, today, attention is awfully hard to come by. Your phone can provide a distraction for the length of a movie if you wanted it to.

For an award season to keep a movie like Sorry, Baby or some of these other films like The Secret Agent, in the cultural conversation for months and months, that's so necessary to get them seen. Whatever you can say about the folly of trying to rank art or the multimillion-dollar campaigns that go into determining the course of these award seasons, the thing that I always hope for is that it means that these films will eventually find their audience that you, the listener, are going to end up seeing one of these movies because you heard about it, because it got nominated, whatever, and then that's going to be one of your favorites.

Alison Stewart: If anybody wants to hear more about Sorry, Baby, we had Eva Victor as a guest on this show. Check out our archives. I think we have time for one more call. Mark, go for it.

Mark: Hey, how are you? I'm from Westwood, New Jersey. The thing I have with the Golden Globes is that there's a lot of movies that are nominated, and they're not out in the movie theaters yet, which I have an issue with. I'm going to try to see Die My Love. I don't even know it's in the movie theater. The reason why I called is that I've seen Sinners eight times, and that is one of the best movies I have ever seen. I'm 75. Seen a lot of movies in my day, but to see this movie and the music and the background and the history was overwhelming for me. I don't keep on reading about what was going on.

Alison Stewart: Yes, it was an amazing film. Thank you so much, Mark. I'm on board with Sinners, I have to say, Kyle.

Kyle Buchanan: Oh, me too. Also, I'm on board with what Mark was saying about trying to find these movies. A lot of these movies come out in very small batches at the end of the year to try to get these nominations. Then, based on those nominations, they expand. I would say the week after the Golden Globes, you're going to see a lot of these movies where you're like, "How do I find that? Has that come out?" They're all waiting for that big national spotlight that the Globes provide to make their biggest foray into theaters.

Alison Stewart: Kyle Buchanan, he's a New York Times award show columnist. Kyle, thanks for your time. We really appreciate it.

Kyle Buchanan: Always.

Alison Stewart: That is it for All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening. I appreciate you, and I will meet you back here next time.