Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We have another edition for you of our series, Silver Liner Notes, where we celebrate the 25th anniversaries of some of the most iconic and most groundbreaking albums in popular music. Today, we are talking about Aimee Mann and her album, Bachelor No. 2 or, the Last Remains of the Dodo, which brought you this song.

[MUSIC - Aimee Mann: Save Me]

Alison Stewart: It was her third solo album after fronting the band, Til' Tuesday. It came out after some unique circumstances. Aimee Mann's music was featured on the soundtrack of the 1999 movie, Magnolia, courtesy of her friend, filmmaker Paul Thomas Anderson. Months later, after Magnolia came out in theaters, Bachelor No. 2 was released, featuring those songs and some new ones. For this edition of Silver Liner Notes, welcome writer and Aimee Mann superfan, Carrie Courogen. Hi, Carrie.

Carrie Courogen: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: Take us back to 2000 when Bachelor number two was released. What was the music industry landscape like at that time?

Carrie Courogen: The music industry landscape at the time was really, really heavily focused on the heyday of MTV teen pop, boy bands really pushing young music. That was something that was a struggle for Mann and her record label all the time that she was working on this album, which she had been working on since 1997. It should have been released in '98, probably '99, but they kept saying, "We don't hear a single."

Alison Stewart: She kept saying it.

Carrie Courogen: Yes. "I don't know how to give you what you want if you don't tell me exactly what you want. If you want me to write something that is a radio hit. Okay."

Alison Stewart: This was her third album, but she ended up putting it out under her own label, right?

Carrie Courogen: Correct, yes.

Alison Stewart: Explain to us how that happened.

Carrie Courogen: Because of all the back and forth, and she had been somebody who, historically, her other albums had been kicked around from label to label. They would get bought or signed, and then the label would implode and kind of shuffled off to somebody else. That is what happened with this album, where she had been signed to Geffen, and then Geffen went to Interscope, which was Jimmy Iovine's label at the time, and it was not known for singer-songwriter material. They had such a battle of egos, I would say. She was frequently described as difficult to work with.

There's a whole super-long feature that I highly recommend from The New York Times '99 called, What's a Record Exec to Do with Aimee Mann? That describes this battle of Aimee having this deep artistic integrity and saying, "I don't know how to be the artist that they want me to be. I'm not concerned with being a huge hit. I'm not concerned with being a superstar. I just want to make good music." Eventually, after all of the back and forth, she finally got herself to a place where she was like, "You know what? Screw this. I am going to work with a lawyer. I'm gonna buy back my masters, and I'm gonna make my own label and release it on my own because this is my music. Historically, I don't have faith in record labels anymore."

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we'd like to get you in on this conversation. Does Bachelor No. 2 mean anything to you? Maybe you're someone who's followed Mann's work since you first heard it in Magnolia. We can take your Aimee Mann questions and comments at 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692, or you can hit us up on socials, @allofitwnyc. I'm a big Aimee Mann fan, have been for a long time. You have a playlist called The Aimee Mann Starter Kit.

Carrie Courogen: Oh, yeah.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: A lot of the songs from Bachelor No. 2 are on it. What makes this album stand out from the rest of her work?

Carrie Courogen: I don't know if it stands out from the rest of her work so much as it is almost a thesis statement of the rest of her work. I think it really is a turning point for her in terms of it's the most confident album that she had had to that date and the most cohesive, and really sets the stage as she is somebody who is making-- The first two albums she had as a solo artist were a little bit more like alt rock, a little bit like alternative pop. Here she's really leaning into power pop, '70s-inspired ballads, Harry Nilsson-style songwriting. It really takes a turn into a lot of topics that are depressing, for lack of a better word.

Alison Stewart: How do you factor in, as someone who's a fan of Aimee Mann, the release of the Magnolia soundtrack and the release of this record? Do they go side by side? Do they go together? How would you describe their relationship?

Carrie Courogen: I think they're very symbiotic in terms of their relationship because she was working on the record while Paul Thomas Anderson was writing Magnolia. It was actually the song, Deathly, that she was writing; it has a line in it, "Now that I've met you, would you object to never seeing me again?" or something like that. Paul Thomas Anderson, he has said in the foreword for Magnolia's script, "I heard that line and I wrote backwards." This script, it's an original script, but it could be described as an adaptation of Aimee Mann's songs. While she's working on these songs, they go on the Magnolia soundtrack, some of them.

That almost makes the release of Bachelor No. 2 harder because she's quoted as saying, in that long article from The Times, she thought she could get released from her contract. Now it's basically because Magnolia has put a new light on her. Now, she described it as something like, it's like you have a boyfriend, and you want the boyfriend to dump you. He's a bad boyfriend, but now he suddenly sees somebody else checking you out, so he's going to hold on to you a little bit tighter, but he's still the same bad boyfriend.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to the song, Deathly.

[MUSIC - Aimee Mann: Deathly]

Alison Stewart: This Silver Liner Notes at listening party, celebrating 25 years since Aimee Mann released her album Bachelor No. 2, my guest is writer Carrie Courogen. Let's take a call. This is Nick calling in from Sunnyside. Hey, Nick, thanks for calling All Of It.

Nick: Oh, hey, how are you? Good afternoon.

Alison Stewart: Good afternoon.

Nick: Yes, no, I guess it's so funny. I could totally trace the song momentum to the start of my career because that song, coupled with its use in the Magnolia trailer, the movie hadn't even come out yet. That was like, "Oh my God, this is filmmaking for me." Then I saw the movie, and I was still under the age of 18, and I was like, "Oh my God, this is what I want to do." I basically heard that and obviously the other two songs from the soundtrack, I guess, six months before Bachelor No. 2 came out because I had the CD soundtrack.

I mean, I actually sang it on karaoke a couple of months ago at East River Bar in Williamsburg. That song and the other songs were so cinematic, and when people are lip syncing in Magnolia to "It's not going to stop." It's so funny how I can. I still work in filmmaking to this day. I've been working in filmmaking for the past 25 years. Aimee Mann's, that album, and it was cinematic. To this day, I sing it in karaoke without even needing the words on the screen. Thank God they use her in that movie because I remember having to wait for the DVD to come out because I had the VHS release, but I had to wait for the DVD to come out just so I could watch the trailer again because YouTube didn't even exist.

Alison Stewart: Nick, thanks for calling in. That is so interesting. That led to his career. What do you think about his idea of her songwriting being cinematic?

Carrie Courogen: I definitely agree with that. Her lyrics are so vivid. I think, also, they tell such deep stories about the human experience. I think, especially in the turn of the 21st century, finding stories about human emotions and really grounded experiences is taking place more in songwriting than it is in cinema. I don't know, I think it pairs well. I think, I don't know, it really works.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, do you have a connection with Aimee Mann's Bachelor No. 2? Our number is 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. It is the subject of our Silver Liner Notes. One thing that she does really, really well is sad. Aimee does something about-- I don't know, what is it about the way that she frames sadness in her songs?

Carrie Courogen: Well, I think there are two things that she does very well. I think there are sad songs and there are songs about sad subjects, and sometimes they are the same, but not always. I think she does the two very well and that she can write these deeply emotional, emotionally gutting songs where you're like, "I have felt that before, and I've been so anxious or so depressed or so sad about this thing, and wow, she somehow captures it."

She also has a way of writing songs that are about sad subjects or depressing situations. A couple of the songs on Bachelor No. 2 are about her struggles with the record label. Rather than sounding "Woe is me," or sounding downtrodden, she has this ability to turn it into something witty and quippy.

Alison Stewart: She can be very funny.

Carrie Courogen: Yes, it's a little bit of gallows humor, I think.

Alison Stewart: I'm going to play one next. What is your take on One? What song is it? Is it a sad song? Is it a sad song about a subject? You want to think about that?

Carrie Courogen: Yes, I'll think about it.

Alison Stewart: Why don't you think about that? Let's play it and we'll talk about it on the other side. This is Aimee Mann with One.

[MUSIC - Aimee Mann: Deathly]

Alison Stewart: What are you thinking?

Carrie Courogen: I think it's definitely a song that is about a sad subject, but it is quippy and funny. Like I mentioned earlier, her work is in such a dialogue with Harry Nilsson, and it's a Harry Nilsson cover. It's a perfect pairing of having that sort of quippy look at loneliness.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Rich from Metuchen, New Jersey. Hey, Rich, thanks for calling All Of It.

Rich: Hey, Alison, thanks for having me on. I love your show, and I've always wanted to call, but because of this, I was compelled. I have every one of Aimee's albums. I've seen her live several times. I try to turn people on to her music, but it's one of those things that I find that you have to listen to it a few times before you really get it. I also find that her music can be very poppy and very up, but on the contrary, the lyrics are very dark and brooding, so it's kind of odd, the juxtaposition of the music and the lyrics together.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling. I'm glad you called again. Let's hear one of the singles from the album, Calling It Quits, which is one of the tracks you said had the most to talk about. First of all, why did you say that?

Carrie Courogen: Well, I think it really represents her frustration at this point, where she had recorded several songs. She keeps going back to Interscope, and they keep saying, "You need a couple more. You need a couple more." She has a few tracks like this one, where she's really staring down her career and saying, "I don't want to be this person. I might just say, "Screw it and blow up my entire life."

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to Calling It Quits.

[MUSIC - Aimee Mann: Calling It Quits]

Alison Stewart: We know that's not true because Aimee Mann is touring. She'll be in our area in June. Why do you think she's lasted as long as she did?

Carrie Courogen: Incredible talent aside, I think when you have a sense of integrity to your art and to your own values as an artist, I think that's going to persevere no matter what the corporate landscape looks like. I think she's a true testament to that.

Alison Stewart: Our guest has been Carrie Courogen. We have been celebrating Silver Liner Notes, celebrating Aimee Mann's 25th anniversary of Bachelor No. 2. Thanks for being my guest.

Carrie Courogen: Thank you so much for having me.

Alison Stewart: Earlier, we heard a bit of the album version of Save Me, but now we're going to play a cut from when Aimee Mann joined us live at The New York Public Library for a Get Lit with All Of It book club event. Here's Aimee Mann performing Save Me.

[MUSIC - Aimee Mann: Save Me]

Alison Stewart: That is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart. We'll see you tonight at The New York Public Library at 6:00 PM for our Get Lit event with author Katie Kitamura, she [unintelligible 00:20:26] audition and musical guest, Reeve Carney.

[MUSIC - Aimee Mann: Save Me]