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Announcer: Listener supported WNYC Studios.

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Kai Wright: Hey, everybody, this is Kai. I want to share something cool with you from my colleague Tracie Hunte. Tracie is a correspondent here at WNYC Studios and she's been working on a project about modern-day beauty standards and how they came to be. You may remember hearing from Tracie on an earlier episode of our show in conversation with sociologist and New York Times columnist Tressie McMillan Cottom.

Tressie McMillan Cottom: Reclaiming beauty would not be about making Black women as beautiful as white women, it would be about divesting beauty from capitalism so that it is democratically available to all people in a way that does not foreclose their individual ability to flourish.

Kai Wright: That episode is called Who Gets to Be Beautiful in America, and you can find it in our archives, but today, we're going to hear Tracie talking to someone whose place in history is coming into clearer focus as a huge brand works overtime to reinvent itself.

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Kitty Black Perkins: I would take a crayon and change the skin color on my paper dolls. [laughs]

Tracie Hunte: You would just color them in with like brown crayon?

Kitty Black Perkins: Yes, because I wanted them to look like me.

Tracie Hunte: Growing up in Spartanburg, South Carolina in the 1950s, Kitty Black Perkins had never even seen a Black baby doll, and the dolls she did get to play with were hand-me-downs from her mom's employers who were white. Even years later, when she did come across Black dolls, they didn't do much for her.

Kitty Black Perkins: They were not pretty dolls. They were just kind of there.

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Kitty Black Perkins: Nothing exciting. It's hard to relate to a white doll when you're Black.

Tracie Hunte: It's amazing how much power one doll can have, or in Kitty's case, the absence of one.

Speaker 6: Hi, Barbie.

Speaker 7: Hi, Barbie.

Speakers: Hi, Barbie. Hi, Barbie. Hi, Barbie. Hi, Barbie.

Tracie Hunte: It's something we might take for granted today, but Kitty's experience of growing up as a Black child in the United States was nearly universal. We know that because in the 1940s, two psychologists, Kenneth and Mamie Clark designed a series of experiments known as the Doll Test. They would present white dolls and Black dolls to Black children and ask them questions, which doll did they want to play with? Which doll was the prettiest? Which doll was the nicest?

Kenneth Clark: Two out of three of the children rejected the brown dolls as being negative and bad, et cetera.

Tracie Hunte: The researchers found that these children were learning the lessons a white supremacist society was determined to teach them.

Kenneth Clark: We found that Black children knew that they were different, that they had lower status. They internalized in the development of their own self-image these negative stereotypes of the society, and the majority--

Tracie Hunte: One of Kitty's earliest memories has to do with exactly this.

Kitty Black Perkins: When I was five years old, my mom had taken me to S.H. Kress' department store. We were near the bathroom, my mom had to go to the ladies' room, and she said to me, "I will be back. Stand right here," and she went into a tiny bathroom and the label on the front was "colored". Right next to it was a larger bathroom, and it said, "white".

In between the two was this porcelain water fountain. I was standing there because I wanted some water. This lady came up to me, this white lady, and she said to me, she said, "Honey, you want some water?" I said, "Yes, ma'am." She picked me up and held me over the water cooler to drink some of the cool water. Then after that, she put me down. Then this man came over to her and started really bawling this lady out because she let this little Black kid drink water from the water cooler.

Now those are the things that you don't forget. I have to tell you that when I came to Los Angeles, my self-esteem was very low. It had to do with where I lived when I was growing up. I get off the plane and I see all these beautiful women, so the first thing I did, because I was so country-- [laughs] you should have seen how I was dressed. The first thing I did was I enrolled in a public-speaking class and I started attending a modeling school.

Tracie Hunte: Really?

Kitty Black Perkins: Now, it wasn't to model, but it was to just better myself so that I would fit in. It was because when I was home, I would see these beautiful white girls, and it's like, of course, I wanted to look like that. I think that that in itself is one reason that a lot of Black girls preferred the white dolls, because of the way they were treated and all of that. I have to tell you it's something that sticks with you.

Tracie Hunte: Ironically, Kitty found a career where looks matter more than anything, fashion. One day she answered an anonymous classified ad. Turns out the job was designing dresses for Mattel's iconic blonde doll, Barbie.

Kitty Black Perkins: The instructions that I got from the recruiter was, "Just make sure that the doll is beautiful and bring her back [unintelligible 00:07:11]."

Tracie Hunte: The recruiter told Kitty not to think about how much it would cost the company to produce the dresses she designed, so she didn't. But then she was rejected because her designs were too extravagant.

Kitty Black Perkins: I was. I also said, "You know what, I'm just not going to let it go." so I called back and asked for another chance, and instead of doing one outfit, I did six. They told me that they usually place their new hires on probation for three months, I was hired on the spot.

Tracie Hunte: And all six outfits were put into production that year.

Kitty Black Perkins: I was so glad that I did not take no for an answer.

Tracie Hunte: At that point, the mid-1970s, Barbie had already been criticized for a litany of sins: for promoting unrealistic body standards, for sexualizing young girls, for being too blonde and too white.

Speaker 6: Hi, Barbie.

Speakers: Hi, Barbie. Hi, Barbie. Hi, Barbie. Hi, Barbie.

Speaker 7: Hi, Barbie. [groans]

Speaker 6: Hi, Ken.

Speaker 7: Hi, Ken.

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Tracie Hunte: In the Barbie lands of today, depicted in the trailer for the new Barbie movie, we see Barbies portrayed by actors of different shapes, sizes, colors, and abilities, but the first step towards a more inclusive Barbie started with the first Black Barbie, and that's where Kitty Black Perkins comes in. Kitty was the toy company's first Back designer. Mattel had been making Black dolls since the 1960s, but they weren't Barbie.

They were named Francie or Christie, sidekicks to the main character, and they were basically white dolls painted brown with narrow noses and thinner lips. Two years later, when Kitty pushed to make a Black Barbie, she wanted this Barbie to have the name Barbie and not just be an accessory.

Kitty Black Perkins: In order to really, really be recognized as a true Black doll, I felt that it needed the name of Barbie. I felt that she really, really needed to stand on her own, and that was the whole reason for giving her a totally different look. There weren't a lot of textures available, but we tried to find the closest texture to Black hair as we could. The very first prototype I did, I took eyelashes and glued them onto the bald head to come up with the short look. That's how I sold it to the company. I gave her a short, natural-

Tracie Hunte: Like a curly afro, yes.

Kitty Black Perkins: -and I worked with a designer in hair design to come up with as short and natural as I could get. She was also Black, so she understood Black hair. I didn't want it too full, but I didn't want it to look like she was bald head. I worked with our sculpting team to do the wider nose, the fuller lips so that the features would be closer to a Black person, instead of the narrow skinny nose and the keen features that Barbie has. We gave her a slim silhouette instead of a huge ball gown, which is what we usually put on Barbie.

There was a lot of controversy about the skin color. Of course, you want to please everybody, but because Black people come in so many shades, you're going to leave somebody out. What I tried to do was choose a color that was kind of in the middle, something that was comparable to the majority of Black people. Of course, I got some controversy around the length of the hair because it wasn't long locks like Barbie had. I ignored all of that because I felt good about the product because I am a Black woman and I knew what I like.

Tracie Hunte: Well, speaking of that, being a Black woman and knowing what you like, how much of you did you put into her? Was there things from the way you dressed or the way you styled your hair that you put into Barbie?

Kitty Black Perkins: At the time, I was wearing short and natural. [laughter] I guess you could say I did put a little bit of me in it. I like to show a little bit of skin, which is why I did the wrap skirt. She has a red bodysuit with a dolman sleeve and a cut-out on the sleeve and a gold necklace that's attached to the bodysuit. I really loved the way Diana Ross dressed, that kind of look, so I put it together the way I would dress.

Tracie Hunte: Part of the fun of Barbie is that she's an adult, but only the fun parts of being an adult. My favorite thing that I learned while doing research was that the first Barbie Dreamhouse didn't even have a kitchen because why would Barbie need to cook? [laughs] She didn't got no kids, she didn't got no husband. [laughs]

Kitty Black Perkins: It's total fantasy.

Tracie Hunte: Yes, Barbie gets to live this life that a lot of Black women don't. I was wondering if the fact that you were creating a Black Barbie who could also have this fantasy life, was that something that resonated with you? Like have this Barbie that could do whatever she wants, including drink from whatever water fountain she wants to?

Kitty Black Perkins: Oh, absolutely. I have to tell you, the whole time that I was working for Mattel, I was living the fantasy because I would see the men on the floor playing with little Hot Wheels, and the women playing out situations and stuff. One thing that really gave me a lot of ideas is getting down on the floor and seeing a whole different perspective, and playing with the doll in that way, and all of that. It was just wonderful. Then when I leave Mattel every day, it's like, of course, I have to go back to reality because I had a family and kids, and all of that, but it was a nice little relief to be able to do that.

Tracie Hunte: It's almost like you got to have a little second childhood again?

Kitty Black Perkins: Oh, absolutely.

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Tracie Hunte: Coming up.

Lagueria Davis: One of the things that I discovered was it was hard to really tell and measure the impact of Black Barbie.

Tracie Hunte: Black Barbie hit toy stores in February 1980, Black History Month. This was the era of Saturday morning cartoons, with toy commercials punctuating every break.

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Tracie Hunte: The little kids eating cereal in their pajamas and watching Scooby-Doo wouldn't even know that Black Barbie existed because as far as anyone can tell, Mattel didn't run any advertising for her.

Lagueria Davis: One of the things that I discovered was it was hard to really tell and measure the impact of Black Barbie.

Tracie Hunte: Lagueria Davis is the director of the documentary Black Barbie. It premiered at South by Southwest this spring.

Lagueria Davis: We didn't discover much marketing materials for it, like if she was a success despite not having the marketing behind her, which I think, actually speaks to the need for it at that time.

Tracie Hunte: Yes, that's so interesting. Mattel went through all this trouble of making a Black Barbie but then didn't run commercials for the Black Barbie. It just sort of put it out and that was it?

Lagueria Davis: Yes. I think we're all kind of dialed into and aware of what it means to be undervalued or to be made to feel like there isn't the demand or the audience for a certain product. That whole disconnect speaks to how, in my words, unimportant it was to the company since they didn't move forward in a way that was as intentional with marketing. If she were able to be successful without spending marketing dollars, then that's profit that they're looking at.

Tracie Hunte: Do we even know how many Black Barbies sold that year?

Lagueria Davis: It's very challenging to even have an understanding of that because it wasn't tracked. At least, internally, they may have, but those documents aren't released to the general public.

Tracie Hunte: The same year Black Barbie was introduced, Hispanic Barbie was also released. While black Barbie was designed with the modern chicness of Diana Ross, Hispanic Barbie looks trapped in time. She kind of looks like Catherine Zeta-Jones from Zorro, and I'm being completely serious. You should just go Google it right now. She's got a white blouse, a full red skirt, and a black shawl to wear over her shoulders. My producer Alana, who's Puerto Rican, says she looks like a widow from Seville.

Barbies are also now available in different body types, including tall, petite, or curvy, with wider hips and thighs and a tummy that sticks out a little. There are Barbies who use wheelchairs and Barbies with the autoimmune disorder, vitiligo. Just this year, Mattel introduced a Barbie with Down syndrome. With all these new Barbies, have we really expanded who gets to be beautiful, who gets to live in the fantasy, and who's really at the center of the story? Here, again, is doll designer, Kitty Black Perkins.

Kitty Black Perkins: Who is Barbie?

Tracie Hunte: Yes. Who is Barbie to you?

Kitty Black Perkins: Barbie, like I said, to me, is a fantasy. For me, it was a total, total fantasy world. She was always perfect, and we strive to be perfect.

Tracie Hunte: Kitty saying that Barbie is always perfect made me realize that despite all this representation, Barbie is still expected to uphold certain beauty standards. For example, Kitty told me this little detail about designing the body for Black Barbie.

Kitty Black Perkins: When I did Black Barbie, of course, we could have gone with a totally different body shape, but the reason I didn't want to do that is because I didn't want to stray too far away from what Barbie herself was.

Tracie Hunte: To me, Barbie isn't about being perfect. The fantasy is about getting to do whatever you want despite not being perfect, whatever that means. I can't sing, but my Barbie was a lead singer in a band. I hated math and science in school, but the Barbies I played with were pediatricians and nurses. If she's meant to be perfect, can Barbie really be anyone?

One thing that I was thinking about is that Mattel has done all this work to create all these different Barbies. In the movie, you're going to see all these different Barbies that look all these different ways. The Barbie who's in the center is still the white Barbie. Did you ever worry that even with creating the Black Barbie, the Latina Barbie, whatever, nobody would really ever think of them as Barbie in the same way they thought of the white Barbie as Barbie?

Kitty Black Perkins: The way I look at it is the one that comes out first is usually the trailblazer, and when you mention Barbie, that's the first thing you think about. You think about the white Barbie because she was number one. Because all of these other Barbies came later, it's just icing on the cake. The cake is the staple. It's white Barbie.

Tracie Hunte: She set the standard for-

Kitty Black Perkins: Absolutely

Tracie Hunte: -what the Barbie was going to be.

Kitty Black Perkins: Absolutely.

Tracie Hunte: I would say that, for me, I don't know, I guess I'm just a little sad by that, that Barbie in some ways was always the same, even if you make all these different kinds of Barbies.

Kitty Black Perkins: Well, I have to tell you, it is a little sad, but it's true. She was number one. The one with the black and white bathing suit on. That's it.

Tracie Hunte: About 10 years after Black Barbie, Kitty got to design a new line of fashion dolls at Mattel.

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Tracie Hunte: The Marvelous World of Shani.

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Tracie Hunte: The dolls were supposed to be African princesses. They were Shani, Asha, and Nichelle. Shani means marvelous in Swahili, and Asha means life. Nichelle was named after Star Trek actress Nichelle Nichols. Asha was the lightest doll, Shani was in the middle, and Nichelle was the darkest.

Kitty Black Perkins: That particular line really only lasted a few years, and then they dissolved that, and those characters went in as accessories to Barbie again.

Tracie Hunte: Was that disappointing?

Kitty Black Perkins: It was, in that, it didn't last as long as I thought it would. It did not get the response that Black Barbie did. I think it had to do with the name.

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Tracie Hunte: Shani was a chance for a series of Black dolls set apart from the Barbie universe, Black dolls that would create their own stories and go on their own adventures. When I look at the Barbie movie trailer, it's obvious we still don't think of Black Barbie or Barbie who uses a wheelchair or Asian Barbie, or really any of the other Barbies as the real Barbie. None of them get the starring role.

Maybe with Shani, we could have had a different kind of fantasy. What would Shani's Dreamhouse look like? Where would Shani hang out with her boyfriend Jamal? Would Shani be going to see Beyoncé this summer? Of course, she would. Jamal would pick her, Asha, and Nichelle up in his gold convertible and drop them off at the arena where they have [unintelligible 00:23:16]. Jamal isn't staying, of course, because he's just Jamal and she is Shani.

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Kai Wright: Thanks to WNYC Studio's correspondent Tracie Hunte and to Alana Casanova-Burgess and Mike Kutchman for producing and mixing this episode. If you want to hear more on beauty from Tracie, check out her interview with Tressie McMillan Cottom, author of Thick, which is linked in our show notes for this episode. If you can't get enough Barbie history, check out The Barbie Tapes from our friends at the LA Made podcast for more on the iconic doll. Thanks so much for listening, and I will talk to you on Sunday.

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