David Remnick: Seven years ago, Ty Cobb was a partner in a big international law firm. Prominent, well connected. Then he got a phone call. Would he give up his job to go work for the White House for a while? The client was Donald Trump, and the issue was Russian interference in the 2016 election. Trump and many others were being investigated in a probe headed by Robert Mueller, the former FBI director. In the end, some of Trump's circle were indicted. Some even went to jail. Trump himself avoided indictment and dismissed the entire thing as a witch hunt. Ty Cobb went on to call Robert Mueller an American hero, and Trump, a threat to democracy.

Donald Trump: One of the presidents of a big country stood up and said, "Well, sir, if we don't pay and we're attacked by Russia, will you protect us?" I said, "You didn't pay, you're delinquent?" He said, "Yes, let's say that happened." "No, I would not protect you. In fact, I would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. You got to pay. You got to pay your bills."

David Remnick: Now, once again, Donald Trump's attitude toward Vladimir Putin is in the headlines after his recent remarks about NATO and in the wake of Alexey Navalny's death in a Russian prison. Trump is also facing more than 90 criminal charges. I spoke about all of that last week with Ty Cobb. Right off the bat, because of your involvement in the Russia investigation, I have to ask you about your reaction to the death of Alexey Navalny, and maybe even more to the point because of your own experience, Donald Trump's reaction to the death of Alexey Navalny.

Ty Cobb: You don't have, sadly, in our day, people throughout history who put purpose over-- and principle over safety. Navalny stands alone in the century, I think, so far, as the person who best and certainly most immediately projects that. I think he's as much a hero as anybody I can look back in history and call a hero.

David Remnick: Joe Biden acknowledged Navalny's heroism, both when he was alive and even more forcefully after he died, and is promising more sanctions, and was pretty unambiguous about it. Donald Trump's reaction was not to--

Ty Cobb: Oh, no, I'm with you 100%.

David Remnick: Donald Trump did not condemn Putin at all. In fact, compared Joe Biden to Putin, and himself to Alexey Navalny.

Speaker 1: He wrote this on Truth Social, "The sudden death of Alexey Navalny has made me more and more aware of what is happening in our country. It is a slow, steady progression with crooked, radical left politicians, prosecutors, and judges leading us down a path to destruction."

Speaker 2: This Judge Arthur Engoron ruled against you for actually almost half a billion dollars. It's a lot of deal.

Donald Trump: It is a form of Navalny. It is a form of communism or fascism.

David Remnick: How did you react to that?

Ty Cobb: Whatever device people pick up to try to translate Trump, the focus needs to be analyzing everything he says through his narcissism. He can't talk about anybody else favorably for two seconds without turning it to himself, comparing himself to Martin Luther King or Navalny. He only uses historical heroes to try to glorify himself. It shouldn't surprise anybody because that's what he does in every circumstance. I think what surprises me is how different he speaks now than he did in 2016. He was pretty unhinged in 2016, but he at least had people like Kushner and others whispering in his ear about what was important to people. Now, he doesn't have even that level of a check.

David Remnick: Now, I want to go back in time. You were a very respected lawyer in Washington. You get this phone call that you're going to work with Donald Trump. What was your initial reaction? Did you have any qualms about it, and why did you go forward? Did you get a sense that Donald Trump had a respect for the process, for the rule of law, or did you get the sense that you were in a purely political realm?

Ty Cobb: His sense was that he was in a purely political realm. This was a personal attack on him, and it was set up by the FBI, and perhaps others. My own sense was this was purely legal. At least in Mueller's circumstances.

David Remnick: There's been a resurrection of discussion lately, in fact, in recent days about Donald Trump and his attitude toward Putin, his attitude toward Putin's circle, and his comments about or lack of comments about Navalny have revived the notion that somehow-- and you see it with Nancy Pelosi, that somehow Russia and Putin has something on Donald Trump. How do you react to that?

Ty Cobb: Taking that predicate first, there's no evidence of that. I looked for it for a year. Shame on me if I didn't find it if it's really there. I don't think Putin has anything on Trump, but he admires the power that Putin has accumulated, and he has much the same style. In fact, I think his takeover of the RNC was very mob-like. He just took it over, and quite likely intends to lose it for his--

David Remnick: Daughter-in-law.

Ty Cobb: Putting her in, I think, is emblematic of the way he views it as a tool to serve himself. I think the end game there is being able to try to dictate who's going to be a candidate and who's going to get the financial support, and also using that financial support for his own liabilities. I divorced the Russia investigation from anything that Trump has done with Putin. There was just nothing in the investigation as the report reflects, frankly, that ties Trump to Putin or Putin even to the attempt to influence. There's now, thankfully, public significant information that undercuts Brennan and Clapper, and any suggestion that Putin preferred Trump to Clinton. In terms of Trump's affection for Putin or--

David Remnick: Again, as somebody who's been looking at Russia for an awfully long time and is following it, the notion that Putin preferred Trump to Clinton is pretty incontrovertible. It comes right from Putin's mouth and from various celebrations in the highest echelons of Edinaia Rossiia, the United Russia party, and all the rest. Let's debate that another time. What accounts for Donald Trump's seeming unwillingness at any point to show any critical mind toward Vladimir Putin?

Ty Cobb: In my own judgment, I think Trump's fascination with Putin is he has what Trump wants which is total control and adulation and riding the horse with his shirt off. Now, we're never going to see Trump with his shirt off but--

David Remnick: Thank God for small favors.

Ty Cobb: [chuckles] I do think it's really a function of his narcissism and his admiration for people who have the stature within their sphere that he would like.

David Remnick: Why have you decided to become much blunter about your assessment of Trump in recent times?

Ty Cobb: Certainly, post-January 6th, has been exposed as the greatest threat to democracy that we've ever seen. I'm a citizen, and I grew up in a little town in Kansas. My dad was a naval fighter pilot. I was the oldest of eight kids. I've spent much of my life in public service. I've never been one to shy away from saying what I mean.

David Remnick: Right now, we're looking at a Donald Trump trying to get a second term running ahead in most of the polls. At the same time, he's facing over 90 felony charges across four criminal cases. A couple of civil cases have already come to their conclusion, sexual assault and defamation, his case about his business in New York City. That could all leave him about $400 million poorer. How do you assess this lineup of cases arrayed against Donald Trump? Which are the strongest ones, which are the weakest, and which are the cases that are the most consequential for the election?

Ty Cobb: The only two cases that I think are consequential are the two federal cases. There's no defense in the classified documents case, particularly given the obstruction and the false affidavits related to it, and the fact that he actually shared those documents willy-nilly with visitors to Mar-a-Lago, including one of his closest advisors who's going to be a witness for the government. He's dead, but he's got the protection of the judge who has basically slowed that case down to the point where there's no chance that it can get to trial before the election. The only case that can get to trial before the election is the federal case in DC involving Trump's failure to allow the peaceful transfer of power and his attempts to obstruct that. That hinges on whether or not the Supreme Court takes certiorari on the immunity issue.

David Remnick: In other words, the court can agree to hear Trump's immunity argument or they can let the lower court's ruling on immunity stand and let the case go to trial.

Ty Cobb: If they grant it, I think that dooms that case from getting into trial before the election. If they deny it, then I think it could be tried in July or late June. The problem with the New York case is not that Alvin Bragg ran on trying to get Trump. That's a political problem. That's a perception problem. There are legal defects to the way that case was charged.

David Remnick: We're talking about the case involving Stormy Daniels and hush money?

Ty Cobb: Right. The misdemeanor that is charged only becomes a felony if you can tie it to an actual felony, and the felony they attempt to tie it to is a violation of the federal election laws. Now, there's a serious constitutional issue as to whether a state prosecutor can charge federal crimes, and the almost universal consensus is they can't. I think at the end of this--

David Remnick: That's the weakest of the bunch?

Ty Cobb: Right. That's very weak. It's going to occupy a month of Trump railing against the system in New York, and the judges, and the prosecutors of which I think we're all tired and familiar.

David Remnick: What happens if he does win the presidency?

Ty Cobb: If he does win the presidency, he'll direct the Justice Department to dismiss both cases.

David Remnick: What would ensue from that? Maybe that's a political, sociological question rather than a legal one.

Ty Cobb: Sure. If Trump is convicted here, he will be out on appeal bond. The appeal won't be heard before his inauguration should he win. Immediately after inauguration, he'll have it dismissed, and it'll be as though the case has never existed.

David Remnick: Just to round things out, the Georgia case, which has its own peculiarities to say the least.

Ty Cobb: Boy, that's for sure. Everybody's got different interests that they can bring the attention of the judge in advance to trial that I think will delay that well beyond the election. The Georgia case is not something though Trump can dismiss, but I think the general legal consensus, which is only based on policy and not based on any statute or precedent, is that it's likely Trump would be allowed to serve his full term or serve until impeached before that case could be brought. At which point, he'd be 83 or 84, and who knows what would happen.

David Remnick: Ty Cobb, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

Ty Cobb: No, I really enjoyed discussing with you. It was an honor to be with you.

David Remnick: Good to see you.

Ty Cobb: Take care.

David Remnick: Ty Cobb was special counsel to Donald Trump during the Mueller investigation, and he's an attorney in Washington DC.

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