BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Have you noticed that lately Democrats are all talking about family, I mean, a particular family.

CORRESPONDENT:  Democrats are fighting for a fair shot for everyone, while Republicans are doing the bidding of the Koch brothers.

CORRESPONDENT:  People in North Carolina are not gonna let the billionaire Koch brothers buy this seat.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  This week's talking point is David and Charles Koch, founders of Koch Industries. Through their PAC, Americans for Prosperity, the brothers have spent at least $30 million supporting Republicans in crucial Senate and House races around the country in this election cycle. Democrats are fighting back by attacking not just the message, but the messengers. Here’s an ad that ran in Alaska.

  [CLIP]:

MARK BEGICH:  I’m Mark Begich, and I approve this message.

NARRATOR:  First, it was a D.C. actress pretending to be an Alaskan. Now, ads attacking Mark Begich on a carbon tax have been called false and not true. Who's behind the attacks?

MAN:  The Koch brothers.

WOMAN:  The billionaire Koch brothers.

MAN:  I do not believe it.

MAN:  They come into our town, buy our refinery –

MAN:  Just running it into the ground.

MAN:  Leaving a mess.

WOMAN:  A lot of Alaskans are losing…

  [END CLIP]

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  In February, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid lobbed a red-hot sound bite.

  [CLIP]:

HARRY REID:  They’re trying to buy America, and it's time that the American people spoke out against this terrible dishonesty of these two brothers who are about as un-American as anyone that I can imagine.

  [END CLIP]

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Charles Koch served up a rare public riposte, with a Wall Street Journal op-ed, charging the attacks were unfair and that his opponents were, well, the C word. It was catchy. Kansas Republican Senator Jerry Moran.

  [CLIP]

SEN. JERRY MORAN:  Collectivists, those who stand for government control of means of production and how people live their lives promise heaven but deliver hell.

  [END CLIP]

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  So Reid attacked again, saying that the Republicans might as well wear Koch insignias because, quote, “They display their sponsors proudly through their actions in the Senate. Clearly, the Dems have decided that ‘Koch is it,’ a move driven, said New York Times political reporter Carl Hulse, by the upcoming midterm elections where control of the Congress is at stake.

CARL HULSE:  For the Republicans, the Senate is the big prize. They’re getting a big boost from the Kochs. I think the Democrats were slow to recognize it, and now they realize they’re up against a very formidable opponent, and they’re pretty upfront about it. They are trying to draw the Kochs into a public war. They want people to know that forces behind these ads that they’re seeing all the time - and they are seeing a lot of them – represent a company that, for instance, in North Carolina just laid off 100 workers last year.

I think the big challenge for the Democrats is can you make a boogey man out of people who aren’t really on the ballot?

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  I guess they think the Kochs are wonderful stand-ins for the Republican Party. You have Democrats labeling the Ryan budget “the Koch budget” and the Republican dream is Kochatopia. [LAUGHS]

CARL HULSE:  “Kochatopia” is actually my favorite. They’re trying to basically make the Republican Party look like the toadies of the Koch brothers; their agenda is being set by the Kochs and that, obviously, as major industrialists who run these big energy companies, they don't have the same interests as the  middle class, and they’re going to push that and push that. The Democrats had been planning to call the Ryan budget “the Koch budget” for at least the last month. And the press releases that were issues on Thursday, when the House finally passed the Ryan budget, referred to it as “the Koch budget” and “the Koch spending plan.” So they are really trying to, to join them at the hip.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Underneath all of these tactics and strategies, there does seem to be some real arguments, for instance, about what constitutes free speech. And the Republicans say that the Democrats are attacking the rights of citizens to freely speak, and the Democrats argue that unconstrained campaign spending and the anonymity that protects the deep-pocket contributors distorts that debate, and that it isn't free, that, in fact, it's phenomenally expensive.

CARL HULSE:  I think that the Republicans do find an audience when they make the case that these businessmen are entitled to speak out. They lose people when Democrats are able to say, but we don't even know who, for sure, is behind these ads.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Mm-hmm.

CARL HULSE:  We know the Kochs are part of them because they’ve been public, but it's not free speech where people are standing up and saying, I'm behind this.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  The argument seems to be, should the playing field be leveled, so that everybody has a fair chance at being heard, or should the free market be allowed to decide who gets to set the terms of the debate?

CARL HULSE:  I think that’s the debate that’s going on. I agree that people should be able to, if they have the wherewithal, to engage in political campaigns to whatever level they can afford.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  And what about the people who don't have any money?

CARL HULSE:  Well, they need find another way. I think under our system [LAUGHS] - I’m not saying I would advocate for that system - but under our system, they need to find a way to be heard, and whether that’s through more grassroots politics, forming groups that can act on their behalf. But, you know, politics is a struggle and you have to find your way to be heard above the fray.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  That’s why I think that this is fundamentally a proxy argument about what America is supposed to be. I mean, you’re seeing it in the vocabulary. Either the Koch brothers are private citizens or they’re plutocrats. Either they are un-American or their critics are collectivist, which sounds like Communist.

CARL HULSE:  I, I think that was what sort of was meant there.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  [LAUGHS]

CARL HULSE:  It’s a clash of titans, in some ways, between Harry Reid and the Koch brothers. So you have both sides who are trying to use that kind of inflamed language sort of to get under the skin of the other one. And, and it works, to a degree.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  It’s so weird that these, these titans you talk about all look like Mr. Peepers.

CARL HULSE:  [LAUGHS] I have heard people, they reference those Muppet characters that are in the balcony.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  [LAUGHS] Is this going to go away after the election?

CARL HULSE:  No, this is all a precursor to 2016. The groups affiliated with the Kochs, they want to be a long-term force in American politics. They didn't have a great 2012. Barack Obama remained president. They lost some of the Senate races they were involved in. They set out in a very businesslike way to review their operations. They’re setting up permanent organizations around the country. They were not involved in the Florida House special election that happened earlier this year, but they went down there and used that electoral atmosphere to test out some of their tactics and messages. They’re very upfront about the fact that they want to change the way people think about government.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  But they’re not upfront about what organizations they support.

CARL HULSE:  You can find out which organizations the Kochs have given to, either from them or through the people who are on the board of those organizations. But what you can’t find out, how much everyone is giving and who the other givers are. There's a group called the Freedom Partners Chamber of Commerce. This is a group you’re going to start to hear more about, gave over $200 million to a lot of conservative organizations. Now Freedom Partners is actually doing ads themselves. For the first time this week -

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Mm-hmm.

CARL HULSE:  - they've gotten involved in some races.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  And are those people known?

CARL HULSE:  We know that the Koch family is involved. We know that some of their executives are involved. But we don't know who the other people are who are donating.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Can you predict where this is going to go?

CARL HULSE:  A lot of this is a precursor to the presidential race. Right now, we’re in a period where there's going to be a lot of big money from billionaire donors flowing into these races because they can actually have a really huge impact, and it's not a giant expense for them. For the Koch brothers, they’ve already spent, you know, obviously, over 30 million. That’s probably underestimating what’s been spent so far, already, in the midterms. And it’s not a huge hit. In some ways, it’s a very affordable way to be effective.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Carl, thank you very much.

CARL HULSE:  You’re welcome.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Carl Hulse is a political reporter for the New York Times.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Have you noticed that lately Democrats are all talking about family, I mean, a particular family.

CORRESPONDENT:  Democrats are fighting for a fair shot for everyone, while Republicans are doing the bidding of the Koch brothers.

CORRESPONDENT:  People in North Carolina are not gonna let the billionaire Koch brothers buy this seat.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  This week's talking point is David and Charles Koch, founders of Koch Industries. Through their PAC, Americans for Prosperity, the brothers have spent at least $30 million supporting Republicans in crucial Senate and House races around the country in this election cycle. Democrats are fighting back by attacking not just the message, but the messengers. Here’s an ad that ran in Alaska.

  [CLIP]:

MARK BEGICH:  I’m Mark Begich, and I approve this message.

NARRATOR:  First, it was a D.C. actress pretending to be an Alaskan. Now, ads attacking Mark Begich on a carbon tax have been called false and not true. Who's behind the attacks?

MAN:  The Koch brothers.

WOMAN:  The billionaire Koch brothers.

MAN:  I do not believe it.

MAN:  They come into our town, buy our refinery –

MAN:  Just running it into the ground.

MAN:  Leaving a mess.

WOMAN:  A lot of Alaskans are losing…

  [END CLIP]

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  In February, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid lobbed a red-hot sound bite.

  [CLIP]:

HARRY REID:  They’re trying to buy America, and it's time that the American people spoke out against this terrible dishonesty of these two brothers who are about as un-American as anyone that I can imagine.

  [END CLIP]

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Charles Koch served up a rare public riposte, with a Wall Street Journal op-ed, charging the attacks were unfair and that his opponents were, well, the C word. It was catchy. Kansas Republican Senator Jerry Moran.

  [CLIP]

SEN. JERRY MORAN:  Collectivists, those who stand for government control of means of production and how people live their lives promise heaven but deliver hell.

  [END CLIP]

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  So Reid attacked again, saying that the Republicans might as well wear Koch insignias because, quote, “They display their sponsors proudly through their actions in the Senate. Clearly, the Dems have decided that ‘Koch is it,’ a move driven, said New York Times political reporter Carl Hulse, by the upcoming midterm elections where control of the Congress is at stake.

CARL HULSE:  For the Republicans, the Senate is the big prize. They’re getting a big boost from the Kochs. I think the Democrats were slow to recognize it, and now they realize they’re up against a very formidable opponent, and they’re pretty upfront about it. They are trying to draw the Kochs into a public war. They want people to know that forces behind these ads that they’re seeing all the time - and they are seeing a lot of them – represent a company that, for instance, in North Carolina just laid off 100 workers last year.

I think the big challenge for the Democrats is can you make a boogey man out of people who aren’t really on the ballot?

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  I guess they think the Kochs are wonderful stand-ins for the Republican Party. You have Democrats labeling the Ryan budget “the Koch budget” and the Republican dream is Kochatopia. [LAUGHS]

CARL HULSE:  “Kochatopia” is actually my favorite. They’re trying to basically make the Republican Party look like the toadies of the Koch brothers; their agenda is being set by the Kochs and that, obviously, as major industrialists who run these big energy companies, they don't have the same interests as the  middle class, and they’re going to push that and push that. The Democrats had been planning to call the Ryan budget “the Koch budget” for at least the last month. And the press releases that were issues on Thursday, when the House finally passed the Ryan budget, referred to it as “the Koch budget” and “the Koch spending plan.” So they are really trying to, to join them at the hip.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Underneath all of these tactics and strategies, there does seem to be some real arguments, for instance, about what constitutes free speech. And the Republicans say that the Democrats are attacking the rights of citizens to freely speak, and the Democrats argue that unconstrained campaign spending and the anonymity that protects the deep-pocket contributors distorts that debate, and that it isn't free, that, in fact, it's phenomenally expensive.

CARL HULSE:  I think that the Republicans do find an audience when they make the case that these businessmen are entitled to speak out. They lose people when Democrats are able to say, but we don't even know who, for sure, is behind these ads.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Mm-hmm.

CARL HULSE:  We know the Kochs are part of them because they’ve been public, but it's not free speech where people are standing up and saying, I'm behind this.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  The argument seems to be, should the playing field be leveled, so that everybody has a fair chance at being heard, or should the free market be allowed to decide who gets to set the terms of the debate?

CARL HULSE:  I think that’s the debate that’s going on. I agree that people should be able to, if they have the wherewithal, to engage in political campaigns to whatever level they can afford.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  And what about the people who don't have any money?

CARL HULSE:  Well, they need find another way. I think under our system [LAUGHS] - I’m not saying I would advocate for that system - but under our system, they need to find a way to be heard, and whether that’s through more grassroots politics, forming groups that can act on their behalf. But, you know, politics is a struggle and you have to find your way to be heard above the fray.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  That’s why I think that this is fundamentally a proxy argument about what America is supposed to be. I mean, you’re seeing it in the vocabulary. Either the Koch brothers are private citizens or they’re plutocrats. Either they are un-American or their critics are collectivist, which sounds like Communist.

CARL HULSE:  I, I think that was what sort of was meant there.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  [LAUGHS]

CARL HULSE:  It’s a clash of titans, in some ways, between Harry Reid and the Koch brothers. So you have both sides who are trying to use that kind of inflamed language sort of to get under the skin of the other one. And, and it works, to a degree.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  It’s so weird that these, these titans you talk about all look like Mr. Peepers.

CARL HULSE:  [LAUGHS] I have heard people, they reference those Muppet characters that are in the balcony.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  [LAUGHS] Is this going to go away after the election?

CARL HULSE:  No, this is all a precursor to 2016. The groups affiliated with the Kochs, they want to be a long-term force in American politics. They didn't have a great 2012. Barack Obama remained president. They lost some of the Senate races they were involved in. They set out in a very businesslike way to review their operations. They’re setting up permanent organizations around the country. They were not involved in the Florida House special election that happened earlier this year, but they went down there and used that electoral atmosphere to test out some of their tactics and messages. They’re very upfront about the fact that they want to change the way people think about government.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  But they’re not upfront about what organizations they support.

CARL HULSE:  You can find out which organizations the Kochs have given to, either from them or through the people who are on the board of those organizations. But what you can’t find out, how much everyone is giving and who the other givers are. There's a group called the Freedom Partners Chamber of Commerce. This is a group you’re going to start to hear more about, gave over $200 million to a lot of conservative organizations. Now Freedom Partners is actually doing ads themselves. For the first time this week -

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Mm-hmm.

CARL HULSE:  - they've gotten involved in some races.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  And are those people known?

CARL HULSE:  We know that the Koch family is involved. We know that some of their executives are involved. But we don't know who the other people are who are donating.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Can you predict where this is going to go?

CARL HULSE:  A lot of this is a precursor to the presidential race. Right now, we’re in a period where there's going to be a lot of big money from billionaire donors flowing into these races because they can actually have a really huge impact, and it's not a giant expense for them. For the Koch brothers, they’ve already spent, you know, obviously, over 30 million. That’s probably underestimating what’s been spent so far, already, in the midterms. And it’s not a huge hit. In some ways, it’s a very affordable way to be effective.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Carl, thank you very much.

CARL HULSE:  You’re welcome.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Carl Hulse is a political reporter for the New York Times.