TOBIN: So, Kathy…

KATHY: Tobin.

TOBIN: I wanna start off by talking about this one song, if you were anywhere in 2015, it was pretty much impossible to avoid. It’s called “On the Regular.”

KATHY: Yes! This song was everywhere.

[CLIP] SHAMIR - ON THE REGULAR

Hi, hi, howdy, howdy, hi, hi!

While everyone is minus, you could call me multiply

Just so you know, yes, yes, I'm that guy

You could get five fingers and I'm not waving hi

Guess I'm never-ending, you could call me pi

But really, how long till the world realize

Yes, yes I'm the best, fuck what you heard

Anything less is obviously absurd

TOBIN: It’s the first single off an album called “Ratchet,” by Shamir Bailey.

KATHY: And can I just say, he was 19 when that came out! Like, what were you doing at 19?

TOBIN: I was not doing much.

KATHY: Me neither. It’s so young to be successful.

TOBIN: But the thing is… Shamir didn’t want anybody to hear this song.

SHAMIR: I literally wrote that song to be hated. [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Shamir says that early into making the album, it was becoming clear that the record producers he was working with had their own ideas about his sound. So he wrote something he thought would be so obviously bad they’d just pull the plug on the whole project.

SHAMIR: And I was like, he’s gonna be like, this sucks, whatever you tried. And that would be the end of that. Sent it to him. “This is amazing.” LOL, JK, whatever. Like, we’ll record it, we’ll waste our time, we’ll send it to the label, the label will be like, “No we don’t want this.” Label was like, “We love it.” I’m like, “What?”

[MUSIC STARTS]

KATHY: The song was a hit. It was in commercials, TV shows, just everywhere. It took Shamir from indie darling to mainstream star.

[CLIP] SHAMIR - ON THE REGULAR

Seems so wrong, seems so illegal

Fellas in the back like a foul-ball free-throw

Yep, yep, you know that I go

TOBIN: But Shamir’s success came with some very real challenges.

[CLIP] SHAMIR - ON THE REGULAR

This is me on the regular, so you know

[THEME MUSIC STARTS]

VOX 1: From WNYC Studios, this is Nancy.

VOX 2: With your hosts, Tobin Low and Kathy Tu.

[THEME MUSIC ENDS]

[WHISTLE]

TOBIN: There’s this one tweet that Shamir sent out back in March 2015 that I love. It’s right around the time he was blowing up. He was starting to get a lot of attention from the media. He wrote, “Also to those who keep asking, I have no gender, no sexuality, and no fucks to give.”

KATHY: I love that tweet so much.

TOBIN: It’s so good! It’s basically Shamir responding to all these people hearing his voice and asking really personal questions about gender and sexuality.

KATHY: And Shamir says he was totally surprised by this public fascination with his personal life, because he didn’t really have any of that when he was growing up in this really open, supportive environment right outside Las Vegas.

SHAMIR: North Las Vegas is actually a pretty small place, and growing up there my whole life, you know, up until I was in high school, most people were able to grow up with that and like, was like used to me. But I still experienced, you know, like a few like, new kids, or like kids who just didn't know. Like, I would just like walk down the hallway and, and, hear kids be like, [WHISPERING] "Is that a boy or a girl?" Like, you know. But I never paid much mind to it and it didn't really affect me much, because...I was popular, for lack of a better word. Like, like everyone liked me.

KATHY: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: I can see that.

KATHY: Yeah.

TOBIN: I can definitely see that.

KATHY: Weren't you like, voted like—

SHAMIR: Most likely to be in Vogue, um, best dressed, and also was nominated for prom king, but I was too cool to run.

KATHY: Wow!

TOBIN: Wow!

[ALL LAUGH]

KATHY: Would've won though.

TOBIN: That's so good. That's such a power move.

SHAMIR: I probably would’ve won, honestly.

TOBIN: Yeah. For the rest of your life you can say, "I would have won."

SHAMIR: Not to sound like a mean girl, but...I probably would have won. [LAUGHS]

KATHY: That’s amazing.

SHAMIR: So yeah, it wasn't until I started like, doing music and getting into the public eye where like, I really was like, "Oh, like my gender identity is like something different." Once it started being like pretty much fetishized, you know?

TOBIN: Mhmm. Mhmm.

SHAMIR: And I was like, "No one has ever cared this much."

TOBIN: Right.

SHAMIR: [LAUGHS] You know?

TOBIN: Right. It sounds like it wasn't just that people cared, it's that they were like, asking you to define it, and to say what it was.

SHAMIR: Yeah.

KATHY: And then they were probably like, "Well, that doesn't make sense. Explain that some more."

SHAMIR: I don't know how I got this gig, but back in 2015, during the Ratchet era, I somehow got on BBC Nightly News.

TOBIN: As like a talking head?

SHAMIR: Yeah. They gave me like my own like little segment.

TOBIN: To talk about what?

SHAMIR: To talk about literally me.

TOBIN: [LAUGHS]

SHAMIR: Barely talked about the music. It was a staunch British dude in a suit, sat me down, they played my little montage. He's just like, "Woo, woo, woo, woo."

KATHY & TOBIN: [LAUGHS]

SHAMIR: And I'm sitting there, and after the montage, the first thing he says, "What is post-gender?" And, I was like, "I don't know, you tell me, because I didn't make that up."

KATHY & TOBIN: [LAUGHS]

KATHY: That's amazing.

SHAMIR: And it was the most awkward interview, because he's like, very staunch and just like, hitting me with all these taglines that he had printed out on the paper, like literally reading it off. And all my answers are just like, "I'm just me. These were all titles and text that was like literally created and made up by the press."

TOBIN: Yeah.

SHAMIR: “I don't know what to tell you.”

TOBIN: Yeah.

SHAMIR: “I'm Shamir. You want to talk about the music?”

TOBIN: Right.

KATHY: [LAUGHS]

SHAMIR: Post-gender, what the...

TOBIN: [LAUGHS]

[MUSIC STARTS]

TOBIN: Shamir has been into making music forever. His aunt is a musician and even helped him right the first track on Ratchet. So from an early age, Shamir knew he wanted to be a musician, and his family was behind him.

[CLIP] SHAMIR - IF IT WASN’T TRUE

I'm sitting on the couch, feeling alone

I don't feel right, cause no one's home

SHAMIR: I learned to sing from jazz, I learned how to play guitar from punk, and I how to write from country.  

KATHY: Wow.

SHAMIR: Pretty much up until I was 16, I was actively trying to become Taylor Swift.

KATHY: Wow!

SHAMIR: Like I was going to honky tonks. I was writing strictly country music. I had a mandolin.

TOBIN: Wow okay. Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.

SHAMIR: I was going in.

KATHY & TOBIN: [LAUGHS]

SHAMIR: I was like, I'm going to be the next Taylor Swift.

KATHY: Okay.

SHAMIR: And then once I started going to honky tonks and doing it and like really going out there, I was like, "Oh, this is not gonna happen, because I'm Black and queer! This is not going to happen. At least not the way that I want it to." And I gave myself ‘til I was 16, because that's when Taylor Swift popped off. And I was like, if I’m not popped off at 16, it's whatever, it’s out the door.

KATHY: Wow, the timeline and everything.

SHAMIR: Yeah. I was like, literally trying to be Taylor Swift.

TOBIN: Wait so Taylor Swift, so if you're not Taylor Swift by 16.

SHAMIR: I was like, it's over.

TOBIN: Yeah.

SHAMIR: So I graduated high school?, and I was like, I'm just going to buckle down and like you know probably I was gonna go to culinary school. But my mom was like actively like—this is how weird of a mom my mom is—she's actively like, "No, you're gonna take a break here and like just focus on your music."

TOBIN: Wow.

SHAMIR: And I was like, "You're insane." And I still, I still didn’t even like, I was like, "Whatever, you're crazy,” ‘cause she’s like, you know, insane, hippie lady. So I was like, I'm still gonna work, which I did, but I was just like, I'll just like make these songs to like make her happy, but still secretly work and like save up to like go to school and shit.

[MUSIC STARTS]

TOBIN: Those songs he made right after high school turned into an EP called Northtown. And the record got a lot of critical praise which put Shamir on the map.

KATHY: And that got him a contract with the record label XL, which brought a lot of opportunity, but also a LOT of pressure. Shamir says XL wanted him to write all these poppy, electronic tracks, stuff like “On the Regular,” which was exactly the kind of music he wasn’t interested in making. But, the label won out, and the music Shamir produced with XL became Ratchet.

TOBIN: From the jump, you were an out queer artist.

SHAMIR: Mmhmm.

TOBIN: Do you feel like there's a pressure for queer artists to be quote-unquote fabulous and have you felt that pressure?

SHAMIR: Oh my god. This is the first like, real question, like I’ve definitely touched on it in other interviews, but it's the first time I've been asked. You know, because like, as a queer artist, you are expected to be to-ge-ther. And no one wants to see like a grungy, sloppy queer. But it's real. Like, we exist. And it’s just like, in the media we're just like seen as like this monolith of just like people who are always fabulous and happy and like, "No. Like, we struggle like the most." [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Yeah.

KATHY: Yeah. It's like they only want to hear a success story.

SHAMIR: I think that we've, even as queer people, kind of like pushed on ourselves, because I know definitely, even I, like, when I'm like struggling, I'm just like, "Well, whatever, I can still be fabulous." You know?

TOBIN: Mmhmm.

SHAMIR: And that's kind of a mechanism but it's not necessarily healthy.

TOBIN: Yeah. What was it that was being asked of you?

SHAMIR: Not to be too gay. Not to be too vocal about queer issues. It's like, it's okay as an aesthetic, but the minute you start actually talking about issues, then it's a problem.

TOBIN: Mmmm.

SHAMIR: You know?

KATHY: Like, fall in line to mainstream stuff.

SHAMIR: Yeah, I've even had queer people I was working with tell me that.

TOBIN: Really?

SHAMIR: Kid you not.

KATHY: Wow.

TOBIN: So like, have the aesthetics, be fabulous, own that you're queer. But don't talk about, like, queer politics. Don't talk about...

SHAMIR: Don't talk about queer politics, don't talk about queer struggles, don't, don't let your guard down, don't be seen, yeah. This is like...

KATHY: Wow. How did you deal with that kind of pressure or feedback?

SHAMIR: I mean, it's hard. Especially since I was so young. I was like 19, 20, you know? And still coming into myself. And that's the thing too, I've always come from very open family, I've always been very open. And that was always like a blessing for me and like not every queer person was blessed with that upbringing that I was blessed with. And so to come in very open, very openly queer, very comfortable with it, the minute that I started being a public figure, and going into that, is when I started to feel that insecurity and questioning because people around me were just trying to mold me into what they thought a queer person was.

TOBIN: Yeah.

KATHY: Mmm.

SHAMIR: And it was kind of sad because this is just like, I shouldn't be this sad because I'm doing something that I love, and I have like this really great life and job and, to have to also like suppress something while doing something that I love, it affected my relationship with music.

KATHY: Is that what happened on Ratchet?

SHAMIR: Yeah, like a lot of the songs, the productions just, I didn't have any hand in the production. Um, and it was frustrating for me. I wrote everything, but I was too scared to speak up. I was so young, you know?

KATHY: Yeah.

SHAMIR: You know, I was just like, you know, I'm like, I'm on a pretty major label and the fact that they're like letting me at least, you know, write my stuff, I should be grateful. But it was really, it still was very, uh, I don't know. I felt held back.

[CLIP] THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT

STEPHEN COLBERTOBIN: Please welcome, Shamir!

[AUDIENCE APPLAUSE]

[SONG STARTS]

KATHY: It all came to a head the night Shamir was scheduled to perform on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert...his first national TV performance. Shamir says he told his managers he didn’t want to perform “On the Regular,” and begged them to do something else. But he felt pressured into performing his big hit.

[CLIP] SHAMIR - ON THE REGULAR [LIVE]

Hi, hi, howdy, howdy, hi, hi!

While everyone is minus, you could call me multiply

Just so you know, yes, yes, I'm that guy

KATHY: The performance kicks into high gear and Shamir is really animated, super high energy. He looks like he’s at the top of his game. But on the inside…

SHAMIR: I was just like already just pretty broken down by then. I had already visually gained weight from all the emotional eating. It was just really, that was really hard. It was even hard to watch back.

[MUSIC]

SHAMIR: I look visibly dissociated and I really was. I don't even remember the performance. I just remember getting on stage and getting off. And that was like pretty much like the breaking point, that was like the day that I was like, "Okay. I can't do this forever."

TOBIN: Nancy will be back in a minute.

[MUSIC ENDS]

[MIDROLL]

TOBIN: We’re back.

[MUSIC STARTS]

KATHY: So after Ratchet, Shamir took time off. He didn’t release any music for about two years.

SHAMIR: At first I thought, I thought that time was writer's block, and that's what I told people at the time. But honestly I was just scared to write music because I'm like, I'm going to write all the songs and the way that feels natural to me but I'm not gonna be able to release them. And if I do, it's going to be manipulated into where it wasn't recognizable.

TOBIN: But then, in April 2017, he was suddenly hit by a compulsion to write again.

SHAMIR: I didn’t leave my room the whole weekend. I was like literally in my bed with my four-track, had all my instruments in my bed. And I'm not even sure I ate. It was my first, like, brutal manic episode.

TOBIN: Yeah.

SHAMIR: Um, it's still hard for me to make sense of it. I don't know, just like, when there’s that much creative energy in such short period of time, while also like being very mentally unstable, it feels very surreal almost kind of like a dream.

TOBIN: He didn’t know it at the time, but it turns out he was suffering from bipolar disorder, and this was a manic episode. By the end of that weekend, he had a new album, which he released for free on Soundcloud.

[MUSIC STARTS]

KATHY: The album is called Hope, and it sounds totally different from Ratchet.

[CLIP] SHAMIR - HOPE

And I hope, I hope, I hope for me and you again

And we try and try until we impose our prayers

SHAMIR: "Hope" was just like a thing that just like, happened. It feels very like, otherworldly, I don't know.

KATHY: What was it...what was it like to hear back to like your, you being in a manic period?

SHAMIR: I, I don't know, I like it. I don't feel a certain type of way about "Hope." "Hope" is actually great for me because it just like, it shot the shot. Like, it shot like the first shot, like it was like the bomb that cleared everything

TOBIN: It was like the anti-Ratchet?

SHAMIR: Yeah. But also just like not even just like for my career. But, like, in my personal life, for everything, everything. You know? After "Hope," my whole life changed, like my life has not been the same since "Hope."

KATHY: So, you’re doing much better now, and you released another album, called “Revelations,” which is much more lo-fi and personal. So it sounds like your music keeps evolving and is really different than your first album. So I’m wondering, how have your early fans responded? Like, what’s the feedback been like?

SHAMIR: I don't know who's listening to me these days.

TOBIN: Hmm.

SHAMIR: I really don't. But I think I honestly like have pretty much a whole brand-new, like, fanbase. Which is wild. Like, I've literally started over. Like, I'm like, a brand-new artist again.

TOBIN: Yeah. Do you have any sense of how specifically queer listeners have either like joined you or stopped listening or you know...

SHAMIR: There's been, I'd say a decent amount of queer listeners, especially because the music now speaks more on queer topics and problems more than anything I've ever done.

TOBIN: Yeah.

SHAMIR: But there's a bunch a little angry queers that is just like mad that they can't dance to my music no more.

TOBIN: Really?

SHAMIR: Like, they mad. They're like mean. [LAUGHS]

TOBIN: Like on social media?

SHAMIR: On social media and at shows.

KATHY: Oh my god. Like, you owe them nothing.

SHAMIR: Yeah. That's like, that's the like the thing. It’s like, "Your music used to make me so happy." And I'm like, "Well, it used to make me miserable."

TOBIN: Yeah.

KATHY: Do you perform Ratchet, songs from Ratchet?

SHAMIR: Not anymore.

KATHY: None of them?

SHAMIR: No. Well if the crowd is nice.

KATHY: Oh.

SHAMIR: I will do songs as encore, acoustically.

KATHY: Wow.

SHAMIR: Mmhmm. I like let them like shout out whatever they want to hear. Um, but never “On The Regular.”

KATHY: Shamir says that these days, he’s feeling more free to write the kinds of songs he’s always wanted to.

[MUSIC STARTS]

TOBIN: We had a guitar in the studio and Shamir agreed to play us one of those songs. It’s called “Straight Boy.”

[CLIP] SHAMIR - STRAIGHT BOY [LIVE]

Can someone tell me why

I always seem to let these

Straight boys ruin my life?

I guess I'm just too nice to

Run away or stay where we are

Who I trust and who's surrounding me and

Hope that there's any good left in this life

The trust I give isn't given to me

And the hate inside is all I see

And they’re clinging to a false sense of pride

TOBIN: That’s musician Shamir Bailey.

KATHY: You can see his full performance of that song, plus another track called “I Can’t Breathe,” over at nancypodcast.org.

[MUSIC ENDS]

[CREDITS MUSIC]

TOBIN: Okay, credits time.

KATHY: Producer…

TOBIN: Matt Collette!

KATHY: Sound designer…

TOBIN: Jeremy Bloom!

KATHY: Editor…

TOBIN: Jenny Lawton!

KATHY: Executive Producer…

TOBIN: Paula Szuchman!

KATHY: We had extra help this week from Irene Trudel and Kim Nowacki.

TOBIN: I’m Tobin Low.

KATHY: I’m Kathy Tu.

TOBIN: And Nancy is a production of WNYC Studios.

[CREDITS MUSIC ENDS]

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