BOB GARFIELD:  This is On the Media. I’m Bob Garfield.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  And I'm Brooke Gladstone. Secrecy, evasion, and stonewalling defined the news in Congress this week.

 [CLIPS]:

ATTORNEY GENERAL JEFF SESSIONS:  I do not have any recollection-

ATTORNEY GENERAL JEFF SESSIONS:  I do not remember –

ATTORNEY GENERAL JEFF SESSIONS:  I did not remember that.

ATTORNEY GENERAL JEFF SESSIONS:  If I had remembered it, or, or if it actually occurred, which I don’t remember that it did.

FEMALE CORRESPONDENT:  Tuesday, the Senate Rules Committee issued a statement saying it would bar reporters from filming interviews in Senate hallways, citing safety reasons.

MALE CORRESPONDENT:  Senate Republicans have a secret health care bill they plan to vote on this month, but they are literally refusing to show anyone – or any Democrats or the public – what is in it.

 [END CLIP]

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  As Senate Republicans furtively crafted their replacement for Obamacare, the story remained absent from the front pages of The New York Times, the Washington Post, the LA Times and the Wall Street Journal for most of the week. No  doubt, the secrecy was part of the reason why.

Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon joins us to discuss the iron curtain shrouding the health care bill. Senator Wyden, welcome back to the show.

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  Thank you for having me again, Brooke.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  So we know McConnell hopes to pass the new health care bill by July 4th without public hearings or the opportunity to propose amendments. Explain why the GOP doesn't plan to publicly release an early draft of the health bill?

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  What I think they understand is that this bill, if it sees the light of day, is gonna generate enormous opposition with the American people.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Okay, for 25 points who said this: “Fast tracking a major legislative overhaul such as health care reform without the benefit of a full and transparent debate does a disservice to the American people,” to which he added, “And it would make it absolutely clear that they intend to carry out their plan on a purely partisan basis.”

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  Sounds like the kind of thing I might have said.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  [LAUGHS] It’s Mitch McConnell in 2009, when the Democrats wanted to fast-track Obamacare. So does everybody do it? How is the situation different?

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  First thing, everybody doesn't do it. And, as you know, I sit on the Finance Committee. We had more than 50 hearings, roundtables and walk-throughs on healthcare reform.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  We’re talking about Obamacare now?

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  Correct. We spent eight days processing the legislation in the open. More than two dozen Republican amendments were agreed to and the Finance Committee posted legislation online for six days before we began going forward. And then the Senate spent 25 consecutive days in session on health reform. So I think you can tell there's quite a contrast  between –

 [BROOKE LAUGHS]

- what was done in 2009 and what’s being done now.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Okay, so on Tuesday the Senate Rules Committee suddenly told reporters to stop interviewing senators in the hallways of the capitol, and then a few hours later outrage ensued; the restrictions were lifted. Do you think that this was a rather blunt-force moved to stifle coverage of the bill?

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  That's for sure. Republicans didn't want to answer questions about a horrendous health care bill, and the thought for them was, hey, we can accomplish our objective by  just shutting down reporters, banning TV cameras from the capitol who might hold elected officials accountable.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  But what about the safety issues, Senator? Some speculated that the decision was made to address the ever-increasing number of reporters crowding senators in the hallways.

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  Our halls can get crowded, but we’ve set up all kinds of approaches over the years, ropes in some places to keep reporters from blocking walkways. But this notion that there is some safety calamity here and because of this horribly dangerous situation we ought to chuck the First Amendment aside, I don’t think it makes sense.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  What does it say about American democracy at the moment that elected officials can craft such a consequential law behind closed doors and that it's tolerated?

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  First of all, it’s not gonna be tolerated. We’re speaking out every single day in every single forum. For  the next two weeks, it is all in, all the time on healthcare. For example, in the Finance Committee yesterday, healthcare came up and mention was made on the Republican side that somehow this was being treated as a partisan divide. And I spoke up within a minute or two and said, whoa, it's a partisan divide if you’re going to insist on actually being able to read a bill?

 [BROOKE LAUGHS]

That’s what we’re talking about here. The Senate Finance Committee is the committee with jurisdiction over Medicare, Medicaid, taxes, and we have not seen this bill. That’s just not right. We have to stabilize the private health insurance market. Both sides ought to come together to take steps to hold down the cost of prescription medicine. We have ideas on that. I’m sure Republicans have. That’s the right way to proceed, in the open. As far as the Finance Committee, which is the go-to committee for billions and billions and billions of dollars of healthcare payments, the secrecy surrounding this bill is without precedent. I have never seen anything like this.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Okay, next up on the secrecy docket, during Attorney General Jeff Sessions’ Senate hearing this week, Democracy Now noted that he said “I don't remember” or “I don't recall” 26 times. You accused him of stonewalling the Russia investigation when he ducked questions about his conversations with the President and the Russian Ambassador. Sessions claimed he was merely following the historic policies of the Department of Justice. Is that a fair interpretation of executive privilege?

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  No, and, and no one really knows what these historic practices are. And it’s the President's authority to claim executive privilege. What the Trump administration is trying to do is have the best of both worlds, and it doesn’t add up. On one hand, the President doesn't want to take the heat for claiming executive privilege, so he sends his subordinates up to Capitol Hill to offer all kinds of arguments as to why they shouldn't answer questions. They say things like “it wouldn't be appropriate to answer.”

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Mm-hmm.

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  And so, we asked, well, where in the law does it talk about that being a legal basis for not answering a question?

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Thank you so much for doing this.

SENATOR RON WYDEN:  Thanks for your interest.

BROOKE GLADSTONE:  Ron Wyden is the senior US senator for Oregon, ranking member of the Senate’s Finance Committee and a member of the Senate Select Intelligence Committee and Budget Committee.

Republican Senators Tom Cotton, Cory Gardner and Pat Toomey did not respond to our requests for an interview. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Senator Mike Lee declined.