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Melissa Harris-Perry: Welcome to The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry, and thanks for starting your week with us.

As we enter the final month of 2022, the people of Ukraine continue to resist the brutal Russian invasion that began in February. The continuing war was a top agenda item during French President Emmanuel Macron's visit to the White House last week. Here is President Biden during a joint press conference on Thursday.

President Biden: I'm prepared to speak with Mr. Putin if in fact there is an interest in him deciding he's looking for a way to end the war. He hasn't done that yet. If that's the case, in consultation with my French and my NATO friends, I'll be happy to sit down to see what he has in mind

Melissa Harris-Perry: The day after President Biden's comments Kremlin spokesperson dismissed the idea of talks, pointing to the US refusal to recognize Ukrainian territories that Russia illegally annexed. The Kremlin indicated that, "This significantly complicates the search for mutual ground for discussions," and there is no sign that either Ukraine or Russia is prepared to agree on the conditions to even begin peace talks. Meanwhile, Russia has continued its assault on civilian infrastructure in Ukraine, which has left millions without power, heat, and running water as the coldest months of winter begin.

Joining us now from Moscow is Nina Khrushcheva, professor of International Affairs at the New School in New York. Professor Khrushcheva is also the great, great-granddaughter of former Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev. Nina, thanks so much for coming back on the Takeaway.

Nina Khrushcheva: Thank you very much, Melissa.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Now you are joining us from Moscow. Can you give me a sense of what it is like there?

Nina Khrushcheva: It is very cold. It's quite sad and dismal and basically no hope. I've never seen Russia that sad. You go into the subway, for example, and in the Soviet time's people were grouchy because what else you're going to look forward to in the Soviet Union? Then it stopped and for 30 years it was normal faces, normally looking people in the streets. Suddenly I just noticed that people once again are very grouchy and sad and grim. It really feels like it's destruction for Russian future, let alone the complete annihilation of Ukraine.

Melissa Harris-Perry: When you heard President Biden, particularly in the context of this conversation with Emanuel Macron, talk about sitting down with Putin, what were your initial reactions?

Nina Khrushcheva: Well, I was glad to see that President Biden toned down his rhetoric because, quite frankly, that was not an appropriate rhetoric that he used before in relations to Putin even before the operation, as I think you and I discussed it for many years, that they should at least try to stop insulting Putin. It is a step forward with a step back because they know that Russians have conditions that they're not going to step away from. In fact, it's been almost a year of the operation. Putin really has no place to lose than just to keep pushing whatever successes or failures he has. He's not going to give up, but I think the conversation is already a welcoming sign.

On the other hand, the longer they keep talking about potential negotiations and nothing is happening, that will become an adverse effect because it would be just same old.

Melissa Harris-Perry: I'm wondering there are those who say this simply strengthens Putin's hand in this moment. Do you agree with that assessment?

Nina Khrushcheva: I don't really because I actually think it was a mistake to start breaking diplomatic relations even before the war began because I think the crisis, the more the crisis we have in politics, international crisis, the more diplomacy we need. They also should be willing to understand the other side. That's what diplomacy is all about. It's propaganda with understanding what the other side is saying. Of course if Biden sits down to Putin's it's like, "Putin won." At this point, I think we are so beyond that because, for example, Olaf Scholz, the German chancellor just talked to Putin for an hour, fine, big whoop.

Emanuel Macron many times in the last month said he would talk to Putin, and in fact he has been planning to talk to Putin also. We haven't heard when this conversation is going to happen. Yes, if Biden speaks that would be important, but I don't think this conversation would bring in fact any results because remember Biden already spoke, met with Putin in Geneva in 2021, nothing happened. They spoke right before the war began. Nothing happened. Americans talk to Putin. Fine.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Do you have a sense at all, from the Ukrainian side, about this notion of negotiation, of brokering? In certain ways the resistance, I suppose, has been perhaps, at least to some of us, surprisingly effective in terms of holding or pushing back the Russian invasion.

Nina Khrushcheva: I agree. At the beginning, I thought, in fact said, that the Russians wouldn't have a prayer because Ukrainians are going to defend their land at all cost. I was surprised when in the summer it was an actual offensive because a lot of it before was a PR war, but then it actually turned out to be something real. In some ways, it's understandable what are they going to negotiate about. Fine. They're now ready for a long war. In the long war, as we've seen it, they have seen it and they have proven they can actually take some land back. It is surprising that the military, but they're a very quick learners.

We've known that about Ukraine all along. It happened after they became country after '91, after the Soviet Union collapsed. For a while it was difficult in Ukraine, more difficult in fact that it was in Russia for some time, but then they caught up quite quickly. It really doesn't surprise me, but I do understand why they keep pushing forward. Although of course, it's far from certain that the victory that Volodymyr Zelensky is promising Ukrainians is in fact going to happen.

Melissa Harris-Perry: There's both a personal familial history here a moment for your own great-grandfather when he came to the US in 1959 to meet with President Eisenhower, but also more recent history. Talk to me about whether the US and Russian leaders can learn something from those moments in the context of the Cold War.

Nina Khrushcheva: Well, it doesn't seem that they have, and that really just breaks my heart, honestly. One of the things about history is that it doesn't teach us anything, but it punishes us for not taking its lessons. It does seem to be happening right now because, as you know, in October there was an anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis, something that we remember very well. 1962, October, when Nikita Khrushchev placed nuclear rockets, defensive weapons I just want to stress, defensive weapons into Cuba to protect the young socialist country and the young leader, Fidel Castro.

John F. Kennedy reacted a certain way, then the Cuban Missile Crisis ensued, than 13 days they've been talking about it, negotiating, writing letters, speaking on the radio to save time, and they resolved the crisis. the reason that they resolved the crisis because for both of them, even the possibility of the war was not something that they were ever, ever thinking of facing. They would not be those who would begin World War. It doesn't seem that we have this kind of understanding today. That not only make me sad, but also makes me understand that those who fight war, those Kennedy and Khrushchev, they were officers in World War II. They do understand what the horrors of the war bring.

These people that we have in power today, Vladimir Putin who loves the war but never fought it, they don't seem to be understanding what it really is, because for them it was all on screen, a video game before. I don't know if this people can protect us from World War III precisely because they're not understanding the horrors of it.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Precisely this point. I want you to dig in a bit more when you're giving us some insights here into Putin. What else do we need to know about how Putin might be thinking about this particular juncture of the war?

Nina Khrushcheva: I know he wants negotiations. He wants out of it, but he can't lose. Something that I've been saying right from the beginning, and probably you and I talked about this years before, is that Putin is not a person who is going to lose. He may not win the way he wants to. He already hasn't won the way he wants to, but he's not going to lose. Therefore, whatever negotiations, if we are serious about negotiations, this needs to be taken into account . He may lose the battles in Ukraine. They gave up very important place the city of Kherson, which was incredibly important for them, very symbolic for the Russians, they had to leave.

The story here is that, well, you lose a battle, but you win the war. To win the war is to win how we look at the world, how we stand against the West. "Look we are fighting now against all NATO," and whatnot. This is, the story is now being sold to the Russians, and that is a very difficult story for Putin to lose, because ultimately that can go on forever, because Russia is standing against the menacing West. Something that once again makes him very different from Khrushchev. Khrushchev's idea of relationship with the West was that if they're not against us, we have a relation with them. Putin is a very Stalinesque, in fact, very Stalin-like. If they are against us, that means they are the enemy.

That's something that I find remarkable today because Khrushchev came out of Satlin, Putin came out of 30 years of Russian relevant prosperity.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Perhaps that is, just to make your point right, directly part of the answer to how it's possible is not having witnessed it yourself, not having understood the clarity of the horror and the violence of that moment.

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Nina Khrushcheva: I agree.

Melissa Harris-Perry: Nina Khrushcheva is Professor of International Affairs at the New School in New York City, and she joined us today from Moscow. Again, thank you so much, Nina, for being with us.

Nina Khrushcheva: Thank you.

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