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Male Speaker 1: If people coming over here and migrating, they obviously want to change their life. I feel like us as citizens we should just try to help them. They didn't come in for no reason.

Female Speaker 1: Regardless of how New York and Eric Adams try to deal with the crisis, our policy and our immigration system, it's terribly dysfunctional. It hasn't been updated since Clinton was president. If that system isn't dealt with, we're never going to be able to make significant progress.

Female Speaker 2: I just think the mayor hasn't done anything for anyone nor do I see them doing anything for the migrants.

Female Speaker 3: On top of housing its residents, how do we house the migrants who come here?

Female Speaker 2: You can complain and want them gone, but they're not going to leave so we might as well offer them better solutions and allow them to give their children a place to call home here in New York.

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Kai Wright: It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. Welcome to the show. People who responded to a recent Gallup poll say they are most likely to rank immigration as the country's largest problem. Not inflation, not housing, not healthcare, not even a collapsing democracy, but immigration. That's 28% of respondents. Last week, President Biden and Donald Trump each staged dueling photo ops at the US border with Mexico. Both men went to Texas, President Biden in Brownsville, Trump in Eagle Pass, where he was joined by Texas Governor Greg Abbott.

The governor has successfully turned Eagle Pass and Texas generally into a national symbol for politicians who argue, in his words, that the United States is suffering under a "invasion" of migrants from Latin America. Indeed, people who have crossed the border seeking asylum have been met with a mixed welcome as they have landed in cities around the country. Their presence and the challenges they present for local government have caused real tension in northern cities led by Democrats who typically celebrate immigration.

Now, we have to say that feelings do very often outpace facts when we start talking about migration in the United States. This week we're going to talk to reporters around the country who have been trying to establish the facts of what's happening in their cities and in this country. We're going to start with El Paso, Texas. I'm joined by Texas Tribune reporter Uriel García, who is based in El Paso and who covers immigration. Uriel, thanks for joining us.

Uriel García: No problem. Thanks for having me on.

Kai Wright: Speaking of facts, can we start with just how many people are actually coming through the southern border at the moment? I gather that the US Border Patrol reported a record-high number of encounters at the end of 2023, but there's been a dramatic decrease. Is that correct? Just how do we understand the volume of crossings right now?

Uriel García: We're talking about hundreds of thousands of people coming across, or I should say more. They're being apprehended by border patrol agents. Yes, as you pointed, January saw the fewest number of apprehensions at the southern border by border patrol agents in years, but these migration patterns ebb and flow. When we're talking about the number, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people.

Kai Wright: What is that switch about going from a record high to a record low at that quick of a time period?

Uriel García: Ever since the Obama administration, these ebb and flows have changed depending on the political climate of some of these Latin American countries in the Caribbean countries, and at the same time, people who smuggle migrants or migrants themselves tend to be on the lookout on American immigration policy. Over the past six years, eight years, different administrations have implemented different immigration policies that affects the ebb and flow as well.

Kai Wright: It's fair to say that the month-to-month up and down is statistical noise. Don't worry about that. The point is, it's a lot of people.

Uriel García: Right. January saw the fewest number, but that doesn't mean that come May we're going to see an increase.

Kai Wright: El Paso has been a center of migration for a very long time and it's been largely welcoming of that fact as a city. Are there systems in place there where you have such a long history of ebb and flows of migration?

Uriel García: I know we're talking about the contemporary times of migration, but El Paso historically has been a city where people come through. It is literally in the name in Spanish, El Paso. El Paso is used to seeing people coming through here, whether it's in modern times or in historical times, but the point being is that, currently now, elected officials in the city have been pretty welcoming, at least in the rhetoric. They have not described them as invaders or a nuance to El Paso communities. That's not to say that there are issues. There's a lack of underfunding and NGOs who need to find shelter space for migrants. Border patrol agents are overwhelmed with dealing with hundreds of thousands of people that they need to process, but the rhetoric is a little unique here compared to what the Governor of Texas has been saying.

Kai Wright: That local rhetoric, you think that is a consequence of the history that this is not a new idea.

Uriel García: Right. That's correct. I think people here recognize El Paso has, like I said, been a crossing point for decades, a few hundred years now and so people have set that and realize people are going to come through here anyway.

Kai Wright: To be clear, right now we're talking about people who are seeking asylum as opposed to coming in search of work or family reunification or other things that have driven migration in the past. Is that a correct distinction for us to make? If so, why is that an important distinction?

Uriel García: Generally speaking, yes, it is an accurate way to describe it, but it's very nuanced. I think something we should note is that not everybody who is coming to the US-Mexico border qualifies for asylum. At the same time, there are a lot of migrants who do qualify for asylum. The issue here is the system of asylum in the process of going through asylum, there's a lot of government bureaucracy that makes the issue much worse and much more concerning. Generally speaking, we're talking about people who are fleeing circumstances that include economic necessity, political corruption, violence, and, in some cases, the effects of climate change.

Kai Wright: It strikes me thinking about the politics of it, that one thing that Texas State Republicans have done successfully from a political perspective is just pick all of these fights with localities around the state and the country. El Paso is a place that's happened. The State Attorney General Ken Paxton is suing one of the biggest migrant shelters in El Paso, Annunciation House. What is Annunciation House and what is the problem that the state has with it?

Uriel García: Annunciation House, it's a nonprofit organization that has focused on providing shelter for migrants and homeless people in the area. It's not necessarily one specific building, but it's a network of shelters that's been in operation for 50 years and has worked closely with the Catholic church in finding shelter. Most recently there's been this wave of right-wing groups and conservative groups that have been attacking NGOs and have been looking to defund federal grants given to these NGOs.

What's most recently happened, as you mentioned, Ken Paxton sued Annunciation House because they did not turn over certain documents that the office was asking for. The director of the shelter sees that as a pretext to be able to shut down the shelter. It's more of an escalation of what conservative groups have been doing to attack NGOs. Keep in mind, if the shelter were to close, it would create the kinds of problems that people who seem to be anti-immigrant are worried about, which is migrants in the streets.

Kai Wright: And to start taking apart the infrastructure that El Paso has had for a long time to deal with migration coming.

Uriel García: Right. Those people who are advocates around immigrant rights tell me that that's what they see, is that it's an attack on the structure, like you said.

Kai Wright: Politically, and maybe this will sound like a naive question, Uriel, but why? It's one thing to pick fights with Democratic mayors over the policy and the politics of it, but how is it politically advantageous to sue what is essentially a church mission, particularly in a state where I assume Christian voters are a big deal?

Uriel García: I think one of the issues is that the rhetoric around the way we've been discussing migrants has been to dehumanize them in a way. We call them invaders. We call them illegal immigrants. We call them criminal aliens. If you're able to do that, people don't necessarily see migrants as equal to US citizens. Politically speaking, if you're saying that you're going after all organizations that help criminal aliens, politically it makes sense, but like I said, it's the way we talk about it and the way politicians have been framing migrants that they see if they're going after criminal aliens, it is politically advantageous to them and to their base.

Kai Wright: Right. Once someone's not a human being, then that's a different thing. We're heading toward break, but I want to play a piece of an interview you did with somebody who came to Texas from El Paso, and then talk about it. It's about 45 seconds and they're speaking in Spanish. Listen to this.

[audio playing]

Uriel Garcia: [Spanish language]

Male Speaker: [Spanish language]

Uriel Garcia: [Spanish language]

Male Speaker: [Spanish language]

Uriel Garcia: [Spanish language]

Male Speaker: [Spanish language]

Uriel Garcia: [Spanish language]

Male Speaker: [Spanish language]

Uriel Garcia: [Spanish language]

Male Speaker: [Spanish language]

Uriel Garcia: [Spanish language]

Male Speaker: [Spanish language]

Uriel Garcia: [Spanish language]

Male Speaker: [Spanish language]

[end of audio]

Kai Wright: Before we head into break, just tell us quickly who were you talking to and start telling us about their story and we'll continue it after the break.

Uriel Garcia: All right. I'll try to be brief. This was last summer in Eagle Pass. I was talking to a Venezuelan migrant who literally just crossed the Rio Grande and he was walking in crutches. I asked him, basically, "Does your family support you in coming to the US?" He told me that his family didn't know that he was coming to the US up until that moment in which he called his wife and he broke down talking about what his wife's response.

Kai Wright: We'll hear more about that story after break. I'm Kai Wright, and I'm talking with Texas Tribune immigration reporter, Uriel Garcia, about the scene in El Paso, which is one of the cities around the country where migration has become a source of enormous tension. We can take your questions about both the new politics and the human need that cities are now confronting. You can call or text us at 844-745-TALK, that's 844-745-8255 more about El Paso, and we'll go to New York and Chicago after a break. Stay with us. [music]

Kai Wright: It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright, and this week we're talking about the increasingly difficult politics and realities of migration. As large numbers of asylum seekers have arrived in the US and forced new debates in cities around the country. I'm still joined by Texas Tribune reporter Uriel Garcia, who is based in El Paso. Just before the break, we heard a bit of your conversation with a man from Venezuela who you met in Eagle Pass, Texas. Eagle Pass is, of course, where Donald Trump went for his photo op last week. It has really become a flashpoint nationally about the relationship between Texas and the federal government. What is going on in Eagle Pass? Why is that an important place now?

Uriel Garcia: Eagle Pass is a small town, mostly Mexican American of about 30,000 residents. It is right next to the Rio Grande. Historically, they've not seen the types of numbers of people crossing through there. What has happened is that Abbott has sent hundreds of state troopers and National Guard members to Eagle Pass to apprehend migrants who are crossing the Rio Grande. Most recently what he did is that National Guard members took over A47 acre city park called Shelby Park. Shelby Park, like I said, is a city park right up against the Rio Grande. When migrants cross, they naturally cross onto the park. It is among the first places they step on American soil.

Taking over the park, they've enclosed it with concertina wire, not just on the river bank, but along the edges of the park, and no one is allowed on the park without the permission of National Guard members who are patrolling the park. That includes residents of the park, city officials, including border patrol agents. Border patrol agents would use this park as a makeshift processing center when there were too many migrants to apprehend at once. Right now it's a very militarized park. You go in, you see Humvees, you see National Guard members with rifles, and of course the concertina wire that I just mentioned.

Kai Wright: It is from afar a bit of a terrifying scene to read about. It sounds like almost 1850s level saber rattling from the state at the federal government. You wrote about how it's fed into the secessionist movement in Texas. Is that a real thing? You have been there, you have been on the site. How dire does this seem? There's the question of what's happening for the migrants, but also just about the larger breakdown of federalism of the relationship between the federal government and Texas.

Uriel Garcia: Some context here is that there has never been an escalating issue like this in American history between the state and the federal government over immigration. What some separatists have been talking about, we used to think about people who wanted to make Texas into its own country as a fringe talking point. What Abbott is doing and going up against the Biden administration has inspired a lot of people thinking that this sort of rhetoric is being normalized or that it is a legitimate solution to immigration, the state separating itself from the federal government.

I think ultimately, like I said, what is happening is unique. We haven't seen. It's, like you said, terrifying to see, just the eye test, going to this park and seeing National Guard members and what's supposed to be a family-oriented park. Ultimately, like I said, it's unique. We don't know where this is going, but it's definitely inspired a lot of people who believe in separating Texas from the federal government or from the country, I should say.

Kai Wright: Okay. Uriel Garcia is going to hang out till a little later in the show, just in case we need to talk a little more about Texas. I want to move our conversation north to two cities where asylum seekers who crossed the border in Texas have been landing. I'm joined now by Arya Sundaram, who covers immigration here at WNYC in New York. Arya, welcome to the show.

Arya Sundaram: Thanks for having me, Kai.

Kai Wright: We can take your questions, listeners, both about the politics and the human need that cities are now confronting as the number of people seeking asylum has increased. Arya, the word "crisis" has come up a lot for New York and for a growing number of places. Just from the top line of it, from your reporting, because it's often difficult to separate the political crisis from the actual reality. In the broadest sense, is this in fact a crisis? If so, how would you characterize it in New York?

Arya Sundaram: Some people, there's a certain sect of society that would say the existence of the tens of thousands of migrants here is itself the crisis, but I think there's also, I think what others would describe as a housing and of budget crisis when we get into the nitty-gritty of the practicalities here. With the tens of thousands of migrants that have come here, many are staying in the city shelter system. New York City has, unlike many other cities across the country, a right to shelter, series of laws and court mandates that require the city to provide a shelter bed to every single person here that meets certain minimum requirements, like they can't be too close together, the beds, for example.

As the city has had this influx of migrants, particularly asylum seekers who might not have familial or social ties or people in the city that they can bunk up with, as other immigrants, new immigrants to the city have in the past, many have gone and relied on the shelter system, which has expanded it by threefold since January of 2022. The city has rushed to open up a number of emergency shelter locations and places that shelters have not been before. We're talking about hotels in massive tent cities that you see popping up on former air bases, other ad hoc situations and old office buildings and commercial sites across the city. The mayor continue to say that the city is out of space, and there's been this question of what will happen moving forward for sure.

Kai Wright: Which is to say that unlike say a crime panic or other things where we've conflated politics and policy around the word crisis in New York, there is a true-- and this is not manufactured, there is a real challenge regardless of where you fall on how to handle it, which we can talk about in a minute. The problem is real. Arya, how many people are we talking about in New York City? This city of millions of people in the first place. What is the numbers of folks that have shown up that then put strain on these systems?

Arya Sundaram: Sure. Since spring of 2022, there have been nearly 180,000 migrants that have gone through the shelter system, and now currently there's about 65,000 that are currently in the city's care. There's a question about where the rest of those folks have ended up, in their own apartments, et cetera, and also, that doesn't account for the many migrants that may come here, and may not even go to the shelter system, but those are the numbers that we have right now.

Kai Wright: Right. It's a distinction of-- Again, I spoke about this with Uriel García in El Paso, the distinction is we're talking about asylum seekers versus people who have come looking for jobs or family reunification. Why is that an important distinction?

Arya Sundaram: Certainly, a number of them are asylum seekers. As Uriel has pointed out, they might not have qualified for asylum. The folks that I'm speaking to are coming here for a variety of reasons; economic, political tensions, et cetera, but I think why it's important that these are asylum seekers, rather than green card holders. New immigrants could say that may be coming and reuniting with family members that have long been here. They lack the same social and cultural ties to the city, that so many new immigrants have had, that means that they don't necessarily have a place to stay, for example, getting connected to services, getting a job, that all is so much more difficult when you don't have those familial and social ties.

Kai Wright: Yes. Which means then now you are depending more on the public sector for those things.

Arya Sundaram: Exactly.

Kai Wright: We had a text message from a listener who says, "I live in Kingston, New York, which has been a sanctuary city for many years. I volunteer at a food pantry that caters to immigrants, primarily from Central America, but some from other places as well. There's a program that is part of the Ulster County Immigrant Defense Network. In the past year, we've seen about a 25% increase in the number of families we serve. The funding, however, has not increased that much. This is particularly hard in winter when donations of fresh produce from farms in the area aren't available."

Kingston is an area in Upstate New York, it's outside of the city. We're not just talking about New York City, first off, and we're not just talking about a strain on public resources, right? How much do you hear what we're hearing from our texter in Kingston?

Arya Sundaram: Absolutely. I've been hearing from so many food pantries, pro bono lawyers, churches, synagogues, mosques, the whole nonprofit apparatus of New York City, it feels like, who has felt the strain of the influx of new migrants with deep needs into the city. For example, there are a number of mosques, synagogues, churches I'm talking to who are sheltering many, many migrants right now. Food pantries, also that same issue is popping up.

I've talked to a number of nonprofits and churches who say that are ready, they were getting so many more people coming to seek their resources, and a number are particularly targeting and having to help migrants now who are in that situation as well. It spans across the system, not just food pantries, but also pro bono lawyers, for example, who have long been helping New Yorkers navigate various legal battles. Now they're seeing an influx of migrants from this whole situation and also struggling to be able to help them.

Kai Wright: Let me now bring in Adriana Cardona-Maguigad from WBEZ, immigration reporter in Chicago. Adriana, we've got you now, right?

Adriana Cardona-Maguigad: Yes, I'm right here.

Kai Wright: Okay. Wonderful. What about for you in Chicago? Similarly, I don't know if you've been able to hear what Arya is telling us, but the level of crisis versus political debate, but actual real challenge that migration in Chicago has presented, how would you characterize it? What is the core of it there?

Adriana Cardona-Maguigad: Absolutely. When we say crisis, it isn't so much that obviously like so many people are here coming, just looking for work and a better life, but it's a humanitarian crisis of having so many people who are not eligible to work and provide for themselves and may not have the financial means to really be financially independent. That has created a humanitarian situation where you have thousands and thousands come in.

I'll tell you this, August of 2022, we started seeing the buses arriving from Southern border states, primarily from Texas. Right now, we have about an estimated of 36,000 new arrivals migrants mostly from Venezuela and other parts of South America. Yes, it's created a situation that Chicago had not seen before. Yes, we had an undocumented community here. We had about maybe somewhere around 180,000 undocumented people here before or around the last couple of years, but the situation with the asylum seekers has definitely changed the dynamics of just so many aspects of the city, including housing, and even the schools.

Kind of Arya was explaining earlier in terms of the shelter system, so when migrants arrive here in Chicago, they're connected to shelters, and they get food there. I will tell you, city officials and a lot of local organizations have worked really, really hard to really assemble these shelters and open them in almost like a chaotic setting, because the buses just kept coming. I believe just recently, more than 800 buses have arrived in Chicago from places like Texas.

In this situation, migrants they get here, they're not eligible to work, and they're draining on their own resources. They enter the shelter system and during the winter and around January, it peaked, we had like about 28 or 29 active shelters. That means they were receiving people, migrants were staying there, and now we have about 23 active shelters. Some shelters have been closing because not as many buses have come in, but when we saw a peak, it was a real situation. I remember before this crisis, maybe seen obviously, like unhoused people on the streets, very rarely I see a family with children, but unfortunately, with this crisis, it became the norm or like something that you see often.

Kai Wright: Has that changed? How has that changed culture? Is that something that has shown up in the conversation amongst Chicagoans as a consequence, if it's that visible?

Adriana Cardona-Maguigad: Well, I think it's a lot of mutual aid volunteers and a lot of people have definitely just had broken by it. They're really trying to help and to assist with all the basic needs that migrants need right now. Anything from food and clothing, and just connecting them to schools and just so many other basic necessities.

Kai Wright: You see people rising to the challenge as opposed to becoming upset about their presence.

Adriana Cardona-Maguigad: I would say for the most part, yes, but there's also been pushback, like when city officials were trying to figure out where to put all these people and which shelters to open or what status could become shelters, there was pushback from residents who say, "Our schools have been under-resourced for years. We've had unhoused situations for years. We've had residents who've been unhoused for years and what are the resources for them", and that's totally understandable.

Kai Wright: We will have to pick it up after breakout, Adriana. I'm Kai Wright, I'm talking with immigration reporters from New York, Chicago, and El Paso, and we can take your questions for our reporters. Call or text us at 844-745-TALK. Coming up, the politics of all this. Stay with us.

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Regina: Hi, I'm Regina, a producer here at Notes from America with Kai Wright. I hope you're loving this episode, and I know you want to get back to it as soon as possible, but before we get back to it I need to tell you something. As you know we cover a lot of issues and ideas on this podcast and we don't want to do it without you. Having your questions, stories, and experiences in the conversation is so important to us. Let me tell you how to be in touch. In the show notes of this episode, there's a link that takes you to our website notesfromamerica.org where you can record a message for us. Plus our inbox is always open at notes@wnyc.org, you can write us or even better record a voice memo on your phone and send it to us there. Again, that's notes@wnyc.org. I'll be looking there for a note from you soon. All right. Thanks for listening.

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Kai Wright: This is Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. I've been talking with immigration reporters, Adriana Cardona-Maguigad from WBEZ in Chicago, and Arya Sundaram from here at WNYC in New York. Adriana, you recently reported on hundreds of complaints that migrants have filed against shelters in Chicago. Can you briefly give us an understanding of what it is migrants are saying is happening to them in those shelters?

Adriana Cardona-Maguigad: Yes. Many of the migrants I spoke with, and also based on these grievances, many have complained about the lack of treatment or the poor treatment from staffers at these shelters. Of the grievances that were filed within a six month period we found about 248 or plus 250 complaints or grievances, and 60% of those involved staffers. Pretty much they say that the treatment or the hostile environment, some of them complain about being discriminated against or having staffers who use maybe discriminatory language because of their country of origin, but also their sexual orientation.

In this situation, migrants are very powerless. They obviously have to follow rules and they have to live within what those rules are saying. They have to keep a minimum amount of clothes and things that they bring into the shelter. There are other things where if they want an extra glass of milk for their children or maybe an extra bottle of water, it just becomes extremely difficult, especially too with food. We're talking about people who tell me they like to eat very plain food, and sometimes the food can be either very limited or they also see that they're being served food that has mold on it or it's something that is making their children sick or their children don't want to eat and they're in the situation where--

Kai Wright: Do you get a sense that this is a consequence of actual strained resources or just malice and neglect from the city or from the people running the shelters?

Adriana Cardona-Maguigad: Well, I think that the one thing that I kept questioning is how trained are the staffers from their favorite healthcare facilities. The counsel-based company that was hired to run many of these facilities, these shelters, and I just wonder how trained are they in deescalating conflict and also just treating people who've experienced a lot of trauma on their way here. I mentioned one in my story actually, the one that you're referring to. A migrant woman complained and wrote in the grievance that she went to get a glass of milk for one of her babies, and she felt harassed. She wrote that she was forced and harassing into showing her breasts. That night she went to bed crying because that gave her a panic of what she experienced on the road.

Those allegations are serious. When you have people with trauma, when you have people who are so tired, they get to Chicago after they just went through the Darien gap, they went through the border, they've went through so much and they have that power to go through all of that. It seems like when they come to the shelters, the power is taken away in so many different ways. I do question maybe there is lack of training. The company says that they are trained and the city says they don't tolerate discrimination, but I don't know, there is something that could be better there.

Kai Wright: Nonetheless, people are experiencing it. Let's take a call. Let's go to Megan in Brooklyn, New York. Megan, welcome to the show.

Megan: Hi. Thanks so much for taking the call. I just wanted to make sure that it was elevated and shared with the listeners that in New York City, we don't view this as a migrant crisis in nonprofits and among social workers. We, who work with migrants, we know that this is not a migrant crisis. This is a fiscal management crisis. For example, $432 million is what I read in Brad Lander's report was given to DocGo, a remote medical company that was contracted by Mayor Adams to serve within the tent shelters at the margins of our city at Floyd Bennett Field, Randalls Island, the Creedmoor facility. They did such a horrible job. It was such a scandal. Their CEO resigned.

This is not the only instance of fiscal mismanagement here. The resources that nonprofits are strained because they have not been funded properly to provide the services. For-profit companies were funded to provide services and they did a horrible job and they continue to do a horrible job. This is what we have to address. This fiscal mismanagement is malice.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that, Megan. Arya, what about this? First off this is Brad Lander is the Comptroller of New York. That's the person who audits what the mayor is doing financially. That's the report that Megan is referring to. Arya, I don't know that we necessarily need to get into the details of Brad Lander's report, but this idea that this is a financial management crisis, not in any other kind of crisis.

Arya Sundaram: Sure. I think your reaction was so emblematic of how the term crisis in New York City or specifically migrant crisis has become so contested that particularly because of the criticism of how Mayor Adams's administration has actually handled this situation. I think there has been increasingly a sense by the Comptroller, so many local elected officials, nonprofits that I speak to, that the city has been misspending its funds, has been relying on organizations for-profit entities like DocGo, and spending outsized resources, billions of dollars on companies that are not really providing good work, that are overcharging them.

There's been this push in New York City to move the city away from these kind of emergency contracts that the mayor has been relying on to fund and manage this migrant crisis. Of course, the city is saying, we had to act rapidly, quickly to adjust to this massive influx of people into the shelter system. We're trying our best, but of course, there is a whole group of local officials and nonprofits that are saying the city just isn't doing enough to move people out of shelter in other ways.

Kai Wright: Let me bring back into the conversation Uriel Garcia from the Texas Tribune. Uriel is in El Paso. I bring you back Uriel as we start talking about the politics of this a bit. I know none of you are political reporters, but nonetheless, everything that you're covering, we are hearing all of this detail about how truly challenging it has been in all three of your cities to try to figure out how to manage this influx of folks. An election is coming in, which this is clearly going to be a top-line question, and a hot top-line debate and politics is going to become part of it.

I'm wondering how you think about how that's going to impact what we're seeing. I want to start with you Uriel in El Paso and in Texas as the political season heats up, if you had a disaster scenario of how this is going to impact the actual effort to manage migrants coming across the border. What are you concerned about?

Uriel Garcia: I think one of the issues here is that-- I'll backtrack here a little and Ruben Garcia, the director of Annunciation House, the shelter we spoke about earlier. One message that he told me he wished people understand was let's take a step back and remember that we're talking about human beings and as Americans we should question ourselves, "How do we treat human beings who are need of help?" If the rhetoric right now and the solution is to continue doing immigration enforcement, it's not going to solve the issue.

However, both Biden and Trump are proposing similar things, even though the rhetoric may be different, but the proposal has always been how do we find ways to stop people from coming to the US? It's never been about, how do we help people coming to the US? I think that's a very distinct difference. Ultimately, I think how it's going to affect the election, I think is who's ever rhetoric prevails more.

Kai Wright: I guess it's how it's going to affect the election, but I'm more questioning how the election is going to affect the people. I guess I hear you saying that from both sides, you hear an intensification of this defining them as problems as opposed to people who we might want to help.

Uriel García: Right. Even from that point of view as, yes, if we're taking it from the perspective of the immigrants, whether they're following the election closely or not, is that ultimately what's going to happen, is that regardless of who wins. Like I said, the solutions they're both proposing has always been enforcement and how to keep people out. Ultimately, I think what's going to happen is that it's only going to become harder to come to the US legally. That is something that we've seen in the past 20, 30, or 40 years in my lifetime. It's just become harder to come to the US not easier.

Kai Wright: Adriana in Chicago. Someone sent a text message that I want to read you and ask you the same question in the context of this because it relates to something you were saying earlier. The listener writes, "In Chicago especially, why does it seem like the migrants are being placed in Black and poorer communities? Is it a problem that resources that were denied to US citizens are suddenly available for non-citizens?" This relates to something you brought up a little earlier, but I'm thinking about it now in the context of an election year, and the context of heightened political rhetoric that comes into an election year.

Chicago has a new mayor, Brandon Johnson, who came in a young progressive with lots of support. Is he someone who can thread this needle? How do you think that that particular kind of politic that we're hearing described in that text message, about Black communities and poor communities versus new migrant communities, is going to show up in the political conversation, and is Mayor Johnson somebody who can navigate it?

Adriana Cardona-Maguigad: Okay. Well, this is an extremely hard situation, of course. I will tell you, in terms of the bigger debate. I think the way it's being focused right now is, yes, how do we make immigration harder for people instead of how do we help people coming to the US? Right now in the focus of Chicago, the migrants are being placed on the south side primarily because one, that's where you find-- or south and west side. That's where you find some of the cheapest rents. The monthly rent cost is extremely expensive in Chicago.

When we're talking about, how do we help migrants become financially independent? We're talking about, can there be a pathway to giving them some sort of work permit? I know there've been some like the temporary protected status that prevent migrants from deportation while allowing them to work here. At the same time, not everyone is eligible for that. When people are saying here in Chicago, that migrants are here taking up resources that should be going to citizens, if you talk to migrants here, they say, "We are grateful for what we're getting, but at the same time, we want to become independent. We want to work. We're just not finding work anywhere. We're not able to work. Everybody's asking us for our work permits."

The mayor has a really situation in the hand, the mayor and the governor and many city officials. How do you handle this humanitarian crisis of people who cannot work and provide for themselves? They are helping some people, they're giving some-- Not everybody qualifies for this either, but they created a rent voucher program to help people with several months of the rent costs. It's a program funded by the state. Not everybody could qualify. People are not having this help anymore. For those who were able to get the assistance, yes, they were able to try to find homes or apartments in the places where they could actually pay for these. You're shopping for an apartment with a voucher, and you're going to go after the cheapest rent, and those cheaper rents are usually on the south and west sides.

Kai Wright: Or in Black neighborhoods. On the question of work, I want to play something. Arya, I want to play something that someone said to you here. They're speaking in Spanish. We'll listen to it and then Arya can tell us what the conversation was about.

[audio playing]

Male Speaker: [Spanish language]

[end of audio]

Kai Wright: Who was that and what were they telling you?

Arya Sundaram: Sure. This was a man named Von from Columbia. We spoke last summer while he was selling Pride Plantains on a street corner in Jackson Heights. At the time he was living in a shelter in Manhattan with his wife and two kids, trying to make it as a street vendor. What he basically was saying is that, he feels like if he stays home, doesn't do anything, then we're just mooching off the government. We're depending on the government. If he goes back to work, then he feels like he's operating outside of the laws because he doesn't have a work permit. He's like, "I don't know, we want a solution."

I just really feel like this conversation is something that is echoed in so many of my conversations with migrants. They have this double bind where the federal government has allowed them to be here, but essentially made it impossible for them to work at least for six months, and oftentimes much longer after they apply for asylum. On the other hand, many of them are aware of the politics around their existence in the city and in shelters and the rising multi-billion dollar cost to care for them. The concern from other residents. So many tell me that, they don't want to depend on the government, but also if they're working, they are operating outside the laws too, and they just want a way forward.

Kai Wright: Right. Well, you've sort of gotten to the last question I wanted to ask you. It was just about how aware you think people are of the ways in which they have become the source of so much political and policy contention. How much that is part of their understanding of what's going on for their lives?

Arya Sundaram: One of the most recent conversations that I had with a group of migrants actually living on a school bus in Brooklyn because they decided to exit the shelter system. Was about a string of recent crimes that have been tied to migrants in the city, and this kind of political narrative, an unfounded one, about a wave of migrant crime in the city.

They were talking to me, they said, "Goodness. We are worried that all of us are being lumped together as the same entities. That some individual bad actors are seen the same as us, just folks that are trying to make it forward, that are trying to do our best and get a job." These kinds of conversations are happening all the time on WhatsApp groups, in closed doors of nonprofits, in so many different cases. It sounds like so many of the migrants that I speak to have almost been surprised at how where they've been of the contestation of their very existence in the city.

Kai Wright: Arya Sundaram is an immigration reporter here at WNYC in New York. Adriana Cardona-Maguigad is an immigration reporter for WBEZ in Chicago, and Uriel García covers immigration for the Texas Tribune. He's in El Paso. Thanks to each of you for your reporting, and thanks to those who called in. You can always talk to us even when we're not live. Just leave a voicemail at 844-745-TALK. We are listening, and it helps us plan future shows.

Notes from America is a production of WNYC Studios. Find us wherever you get your podcasts, and follow us on Instagram @noteswithkai. We love to hear from you there, as well as on the phone. This episode was produced by Siona Petros. Our theme music and sound design is by Jared Paul. Matthew Miranda was live engineer this week. Our team also includes Katerina Barton, Regina de Heer, Karen Frillman, Suzanne Gaber, Felice León, and Lindsay Foster Thomas. I'm Kai Wright. Thanks for spending time.

 

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