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Speaker 1:

Listener-supported WNYC Studios.

Speaker 2:

From One World Trade Center in Manhattan. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of The New Yorker and WNYC Studios.

David Remnick:

Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Marianne Williamson, who's running for the presidential nomination, has never held national office. She's never held any political office, but she's certainly a public figure. And like our current president, she's been a bestselling author for decades. Her books on self-help topics include, A Woman's Worth and Healing the Soul of America. She's a close friend of Oprah's, and she frames her critique of Donald Trump, not in political terms, not in policy terms, but in spiritual terms.

Marianne W.:

This man has reached into the psyche of the American people and he's harnessed fear for political purposes. So, Mr. President, if you're listening, I want you to hear me, please. You have harnessed fear for political purposes and only love can cast that out. So, I sir, I have a feeling you know what you're doing. I'm going to harness love for political purposes. I will meet you on that field. And sir, love will win.

David Remnick:

She impressed some viewers with her convictions, however, unorthodox, and, after the first July debate, Marianne Williamson was the most Googled candidate. I spoke with her about her campaign for the democratic nomination early last week. I think the fairest question to ask you is very simple. Why are you running for president?

Marianne W.:

Donald Trump being president has changed the world, and it's changed the world, not only globally in terms of geopolitics, but I think personally for many people. I'm one of millions of people. I'm sure this is true of you, and probably everyone listening to this program, to some extent. Nothing is the same, in terms of where we see ourselves in relationship to the rest of our lives, to our country, to the rest of the world. And I think that there's a deep question we're all asking whether it's inchoate or whether very clear unconscious, which is, "How can I possibly help?"

Marianne W.:

And, I think, we all feel, most of us, called on some level to use whatever skills we have to try to make a difference at a time such as this. So, I challenge the idea that only the people whose careers have been entrenched for years in the limitations of the mindset that drove us into this ditch are qualified to lead us out of this ditch. I think this is one of those times in American history-

David Remnick:

That require what, a spiritual leader, above all?

Marianne W.:

Well, can we talk about the narrative of American history? Slavery did not end because the political status quo of the time decided to end slavery. It ended because with the abolitionist movement that was, in fact, begun by the early evangelicals and Quakers. So, yes, it came from a religious and spiritual foundation. People rose up. The people stepped in. And with civil rights, the political establishment of the time did not wake up and say, "Let's desegregate the South." A Baptist preacher, named Dr. Martin Luther King, and the Civil Rights Movement, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference rose up. The people stepped in. So, in fact, with every major course correction, in terms of social justice than the United States, it has, in fact, been an intervention by the people themselves. And, to be honest with you, David, yes, it has been centered in-

David Remnick:

Well, you-

Marianne W.:

... religious and spiritual circle.

David Remnick:

Absolutely. William Lloyd Garrison played an enormous role. Martin Luther King played an enormous role. Are you putting yourself at that level, as a spiritual and inspirational leader?

Marianne W.:

Absolutely not. I did not say that at all. I have been working for 35 years up close and personal with people whose lives are in crisis, and that's one of the things that gives me the insight I have, because I've seen what bad public policy does to people's lives. It's what gives me such a passion about changing that bad public policy. I've been working for years with people who live, daily, the economic tension and anxiety created by this oligarchic system. The first thing we have to do is to return to principle. This is how you change a life. This is how you change a country, because all that a country is, is a group of individuals.

Marianne W.:

So, you have to ask yourself, "Where am I and where am I not the person I say I am?" The people of the United States need to emotionally and psychologically re-bond with the principles of the Declaration of Independence, and those principles are written on marble walls. They're written on parchment, but principles die if they're not alive in us.

David Remnick:

I'm curious about your tactical emphasis or your genuine emphasis on harnessing emotions. Why do you see that as crucial to beating Trump?

Marianne W.:

What has happened in this country and what has happened in many places in this world is that the worst aspects of human character had been harnessed for political purposes, racism, bigotry, antisemitism, homophobia, xenophobia, Islamophobia, et cetera. No intelligent observer thought that these things didn't exist in the United States, but we thought we have reached a consensus several decades ago where there were lines [inaudible 00:05:20] which we would not go, on either left or right, that no major political entity would give a megaphone to any of these voices. Those levies have fallen. Now, the problem is not that there are more haters than decent, loving good people. That's not the problem. The problem is that the haters in this country have become collectivized for political purposes. There are a lot of wonderful, decent, loving, really good people out there. We could harness all that and change the world.

David Remnick:

When you become president, you enter a world of Mitch McConnell. You enter a world of a Senate that is very unlikely to be majority democratic. You enter a world of all kinds of political realities and obstructions and difficulties. What would happen on January 20th when you become president of United States? What would a Marianne Williamson administration look like?

Marianne W.:

There are four pillars to the moral politics that I believe that we need in this country at this point. First of all, it has to do with a moral economy. Trickle down economics is an amoral system that has led to immoral consequences. So, my sense of what needs to change, economically, holding capitalism accountable. I consider myself a capitalist, but I think we need capitalism with a conscience, and our system-

David Remnick:

What does that mean in terms of policy?

Marianne W.:

Well, we need to repeal the 2017 tax cut, put back in the middle class tax cut, stop the corporate subsidies. Why do we pay $26 billion in subsidies to the fossil fuel companies alone? The government needs to take back its own negotiating power with big pharmaceutical companies. We need to look how much of our military budget is actually money that the military said that they need to provide for legitimate security concerns, and how much above that is money that has to do with expenditures that mainly have to do with short-term profit maximization for defense contractors. And I agree with Elizabeth, we need about 3% tax on the assets of billionaires and 2% tax on the assets of 50 million and more. These are the kinds of changes on a pure policy level that will begin to transition us back to a functioning democracy and not just a functioning corporatocracy or oligarchy.

David Remnick:

What would in a Williamson administration look like? Who would you bring to the fore in a cabinet in your presidency?

Marianne W.:

So, first of all, all the people in my cabinet would have to have a lot of experience in government, but they would also have the consciousness that I wish to bring. So, my attorney general, for instance, would have to be someone exquisitely aware and alert to the racial disparities in our criminal sentencing, in policing, and so forth. And I would also want my attorney general to be someone who is very aware of white collar crime and also very alert to the issues of voter suppression. So, really strong, kick-ass, progressive attorney general. Yeah, kick-ass. Absolutely.

David Remnick:

Okay, kick-ass.

Marianne W.:

Now, in terms of-

David Remnick:

Secretary of State?

Marianne W.:

... Well, it's pretty funny about Secretary of State, because my idea of Secretary of State, my fantasy Secretary of State is outside the box, but I thought, "Wow, this person would be perfect." And then, I recently read that person say in The New York Times, about my appearance in one of the debates, he said, "That woman shouldn't even be on the stage."

David Remnick:

Who was that?

Marianne W.:

And I thought Nicholas Christophe would be the best Secretary of State, that he should be Secretary of State-

David Remnick:

The Times columnist?

Marianne W.:

... Yes.

David Remnick:

Yeah.

Marianne W.:

And because his geopolitical understanding of what is going on in this world is... So, to me, he would be... And then, what you get under him are the lieutenants. Right?

David Remnick:

Right.

Marianne W.:

But then I read that he can't stand me. So, I thought, "Well, he probably wouldn't want to work for me."

David Remnick:

Have you met Donald Trump?

Marianne W.:

No. I saw him once. I was at Mar-a-Lago for a party when he was married to Marla Trump.

David Remnick:

Marla Maples.

Marianne W.:

Marla Maples. Right.

David Remnick:

How long ago was that?

Marianne W.:

It was a fundraiser for an AIDS organization I had founded, so it would probably have been in the 90s.

David Remnick:

And, back then, what'd you think of him?

Marianne W.:

I thought about him what I think a lot of people did. He was like this vulgar American character. I didn't hate him. My mother would've had a word for him, a Yiddish word.

David Remnick:

Which one?

Marianne W.:

I'm not going to tell you which Yiddish word it is.

David Remnick:

We allow all Yiddish words on this program.

Marianne W.:

No, I'm not going to say... No, no, no, no, no. It's a word. At that time, and this is something that I find very mysterious, actually, if you look at interviews with him from the 80s, he was really different. He even looked different, which makes me think, gives me my own theories about what's involved in all this.

David Remnick:

Which is?

Marianne W.:

When you see some features on someone's face change that much. I'll leave it at that. But he, even when he talk-

David Remnick:

It's not just aging? What are we talking about?

Marianne W.:

... Do your research, David? But he-

David Remnick:

Wait. What does that mean, do your-

Marianne W.:

I don't want to go into that. It's just that I think that there are a lot of people who find a lot very curious about the president, but I don't want to go into any of that. But I will say this, when he talked about politics-

David Remnick:

... But wait, you're running on, and admirably, a policy of being straightforward about what you mean and what you think.

Marianne W.:

But I'm not running on a campaign of personal demonization or personal attack. I can keep it to my conversations about the president's policies and that's all I want to do. And that's all I would want to do if I-

David Remnick:

You think character doesn't matter?

Marianne W.:

... Character absolutely does matter. But we were getting into areas here that went beyond character, and I don't need to tell the American people the president's character, because the president's character is very obvious for all to see.

David Remnick:

Now, I know this has come up and I know it's controversial and I know there've been different statements on it, so I want to get you on the record. And, as a parent of someone with a severely autistic child, I want to get straight what you think about vaccinations. I'm just not quite clear on whether you're an anti-vaxxer-

Marianne W.:

I am not an anti-vaxxer.

David Remnick:

... or you're somewhere in the middle or you think vaccinations are right and necessary, as I do at vaccinations.

Marianne W.:

Look at smallpox. Look at polio. Where would we be without vaccinations? Vaccinations save lives. And anytime that there is a medical intervention, there's benefit and there's also risk, and the government absolutely must come down on the side of the public good. I made an admittedly sloppy comment about the removal of exemptions.

David Remnick:

Tell us what the comment was and how you would correct it.

Marianne W.:

I said that they were draconian. I said that they were Orwellian. I said, "Well, that sounds kind of Orwellian and draconian, to me, to remove all the exemptions."

David Remnick:

And how would you say it now?

Marianne W.:

I would not say that. It was a sloppy comment that a presidential candidate should not have said.

David Remnick:

Fair enough. And so, in other words, what you're saying is, so, say, for example, the parents, many parents, in fact, in the Los Angeles area, who are trying to get out of vaccines that have to do with measles, they're wrong.

Marianne W.:

The issue of a lot of those people that I've heard is, I've heard legitimate questions of people wanting to know why can't the measles vaccine be a separate vaccine? I don't find people who ask those questions to be a bunch of crazy anti-vaxxers. I think that everybody is just concerned about the health of our children.

David Remnick:

Well, that's fair enough, but, sometimes, even the most earnest and right-minded people are just scientifically wrong.

Marianne W.:

Indeed. And the government has to make the decision that, based on its evaluation, scientific evaluation, is in the best interest of the public. And that's what I would do as president.

David Remnick:

You've been running for president now for a bit and I wonder what you've learned from it. You've had some good moments, particularly, in the second debate. God knows, Twitter rushed in behind you and you got enormous amount of-

Marianne W.:

Google.

David Remnick:

... and Google, as well.

Marianne W.:

What happened to Montana?

David Remnick:

And then you've gotten some coverage that portray you as a kind of crystal-gazing kook. You've gotten all this. How do you respond to the life experience of running for president for at least a few months?

Marianne W.:

It's certainly a-

David Remnick:

What's it like?

Marianne W.:

... It's certainly a challenge to practice what you preach. I know this sounds naive. I didn't think the left was so mean. I didn't think the left lied like this. I thought the right did that. I thought we were better.

David Remnick:

What's been unfair? Tell me what you-

Marianne W.:

Oh, come on. You just mentioned crystal gazing. There is no crystal in my home, David. There's never been a crystal on stage when I've talked. I have never told an AIDS patient not to take their medicine. I've never told anyone not to take their medicine. I've never told anyone that their lovelessness created their disease. I've never told anyone they could love enough to cure their disease. I'm Jewish. I go to the doctor. This idea that I'm that person.

David Remnick:

Let's entertain the possibility that you don't go to the precedency.

Marianne W.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Remnick:

Is there a way to lose well, here? In other words-

Marianne W.:

Of course.

David Remnick:

... to have an effect while losing and what would it be?

Marianne W.:

Of course. Well, I feel, to be honest, David, I feel I've already impacted this conversation with the other candidates who are talking about reparations. They wouldn't be talking about reparations if I had not opened that up and made it a pillar of my campaign.

David Remnick:

Are you saying you introduced reparations-

Marianne W.:

Absolutely.

David Remnick:

... as a campaign discussion?

Marianne W.:

I certainly did and I hope you will-

David Remnick:

Wouldn't that come as a surprise to Cory Booker and others?

Marianne W.:

No, it would not come as a surprise to Cory Booker. Cory would say, "Yep, she sure did." Absolutely. Look at my website. From the moment I announced in January, I talked about reparations in my opening speech. I first wrote about reparations in Healing the Soul of America, my book that came out in 1997. It has been on my website as part of my main pillar of my campaign since the very beginning, in January, and I've talked about the difference between race-based policies and reparations. I have a very, very extensive conversation about that. And absolutely, yes.

David Remnick:

Right now, as I understand it, you are not scheduled to be in the next debate.

Marianne W.:

I have the 130,000 unique donors. I got 2% at the Monmouth poll, yesterday, just like Julian Castro did, Beto O'Rourke did. I, just yesterday morning, was asking myself, "What's the message here? Am I supposed to just wrap it up?" And I thought, "Well, I'll let my trip to New Hampshire tell me." And when hundreds of people are showing up, and everywhere I go, people in airports, "You go, don't you leave, you stay in there."

David Remnick:

Okay, but, in fairness, that happens to any candidate who's doing the work, who's running around New Hampshire and Iowa. People come up and say-

Marianne W.:

That's not true.

David Remnick:

... "Stay in there."

Marianne W.:

They don't all get what I got at.

David Remnick:

At what point do you say, in other words, what's the determining fact, you feel?

Marianne W.:

I'll know the point. I'll know it in my heart, but it's not yet. I'm running for president.

David Remnick:

Marianne Williamson, thank you so much.

Marianne W.:

Thank you so much.

David Remnick:

Marianne Williamson, who's running for the democratic nomination. I'm David Remnick and that's The New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2:

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