David Remnick: There was a time not very long ago that Liz Cheney was a big deal, a serious contender in Republican politics. She obviously came from a Washington power family. She's the daughter of Vice President Dick Cheney, and her mother is Lynne Cheney, who chaired the National Endowment for the Humanities. Early on, Liz Cheney worked in the State Department before running for office in the state of Wyoming.

In Congress, she quickly rose to be the number three Republican. In other words, Liz Cheney was every bit the conservative Washington insider. She was totally on board when Donald Trump came to town and voted with his positions a remarkable 93% at the time. Finally, at the end of the Trump Administration, she broke with Trump. She balked. She wouldn't go along with Republicans who ignored or amplified the stream of dangerous lies about the 2020 election.

In the aftermath of January 6th, she voted to impeach Donald Trump, something that only 10 Republicans did. That was it. Republicans in Washington and back in Wyoming stripped Liz Cheney of her party positions. They censured her, and finally, she lost a primary election very badly. Cheney recounts all of this in a new book with the title, Oath and Honor. We spoke last week. I think we should start out with the most important thing of all in 2024. Would you say that the United States is poised to potentially elect an aspiring dictator?

Liz Cheney: I think there's no question, and I think one of our challenges, those of us who recognize the threat, is to be able to convey how perilous the moment is because it's something we've never faced before, as you know, in this country. It can be very challenging to convince people that that's in fact where we are, but it certainly is where we are.

David Remnick: You've used the phrase sleepwalking, sleepwalking toward dictatorship. What does that mean?

Liz Cheney: It means that we're gradually accepting things that we would never have accepted previously. Even if you just look at January 6th and at what people agreed right after January 6th. Certainly, almost every Republican in Congress knew Donald Trump was responsible and had prepared on the House side a censure resolution that mirrored the language of the impeachment article. It was a moment where people really understood what he had done was unacceptable, not to mention unconstitutional and illegal. That recognition very quickly though dwindled.

We've come to accept things now in terms of what he says, what he's doing. In his playbook in some cases is to say things that are so extreme that many people listening have discounted it and have said he can't possibly mean that.

David Remnick: Many dictators have been elected to their perch. Hitler was elected. What is the potential for Trump to be elected? What do you think the odds are? Once elected, how would he be different in 2024, 2025 than he was from 2016 to the end of his term?

Liz Cheney: I think the potential is very real. He obviously is leading by a significant margin in the Republican primary race. Anybody who thinks that he can't win the general, I think that's wishful thinking. We know that he's willing to seize power. He's had a dry run. If you look at the story of the select committee, for example, the witnesses that we put on. At the time when I heard, for example, General Mike Flynn suggest the president should deploy the military to rerun the election in swing states, I had no idea that he actually was contemplating doing that.

If you think about what it means that he's talked already about putting Mike Flynn back into positions of power, I think there's no question that he'll do that if given the opportunity if he needs to.

Speaker 3: General Flynn, do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified morally?

General Mike Flynn: I take the fifth.

Speaker 3: Do you believe the violence on January 6th was justified legally?

General Mike Flynn: Yes.

Speaker 3: General Flynn, do you believe in the peaceful transition of power in the United States of America?

General Mike Flynn: Yes.

Liz Cheney: In a second Trump term, he won't obey the rulings of the courts. He'll offer pardons to people who do his bidding. People need to take very seriously the fact that he has practiced. He's told us what he'll do and he'll certainly do it again. He'll be better at it and he'll be surrounded by people who will help him rather than prevent him.

David Remnick: I think it's fair to say in 2016 when he was elected, people on my side of the political block were appalled, terrified, full of warning and foreboding and all the rest. Did you not feel the same way right from the get-go with Trump or did your sense of him evolve? Did you have optimism about Donald Trump?

Liz Cheney: What I remember thinking was-- and part of this is informed by the fact that I'd worked at the State Department. I certainly grew up around politics in and out of the White House, so I knew about the structures that are in place that are there to help serve American presidents, the structure of the National Security Council, the structure of the Executive Secretariat in the White House, and I thought Trump would grow into the job. I thought like I think many Republicans did, that those structures around him would inform him and that he'd grow into the job.

David Remnick: What in his behavior led you to think so, or was it you just hoped, you wished it would be so?

Liz Cheney: It was what I had seen happen before, and I think that was the mistake. When you start to think about the things that he did-- These were things that I spoke out about as they were happening when he stood next to Putin in Helsinki and said he trusted Putin more than his own intelligence services or when he suggested America should pull out of NATO, that NATO is obsolete.

It's the same thing that we're suffering from now in some ways. It's hard to imagine an American president as dangerous as he was. We have not ever faced a danger like this, and we've seen what it'll do.

David Remnick: I guess I want to get a sense of what it was like in private meetings among Republicans, in the Republican caucus, how Trump was talked about beginning in 2016 right through 2020 because obviously, people would come-- You yourself voted with him over 90% of the time, but how were you and your colleagues talking about him as opposed to what they were saying in public?

Liz Cheney: I think there was a view that the policies in many ways were policies I agreed with, policies that many Republicans agreed with. I would say up until really the 2020 election, and there were periods of time certainly leading up to that where he said things like maybe we can delay the election. The real turning point in my mind obviously came in the days after the 2020 election as it became clear that he was taking steps that increasingly looked like he might not leave office.

David Remnick: Well, you said that the cause of our time is not to become numb. As somebody who's inside the Republican Party, inside those cloakrooms, what has allowed your colleagues or former colleagues in the party to become numb? Is it personal ambition? Is it a strange sense of idealism gone wrong? Is it so great being a congressman or a senator that you'll keep clinging onto your job no matter what? Is it so swell?

Liz Cheney: It's all of those things. I don't think that there's a lot of idealism in there, though. I think that they're a very small number, and I think it's single digits of members who actually believe Trump. That's one group, but you have a much larger group. You've got over 80 Republicans.

David Remnick: You think it's in single digits that they actually believe him and everybody else is just pretending?

Liz Cheney: In the House. Yes, for sure. Now, I think that beyond that though, you've got people, some of whom have made a calculated decision, "Look, this is my political future. If I want to survive, I've got to be an aggressive supporter of Donald Trump's." Look, psychologically, if you've embraced him after he tried to seize power and launched a violent mob to assault the Capitol, then you really can never go back because you've accepted a line that can never be crossed.

Then I think you also have a lot of Republicans who really just don't want to deal with it, who believed that he was going to fade away, that we didn't have to deal with it, that talking about it was what gave him power, and so put their head in the sand and hope for the best.

David Remnick: Let's talk about the election for a second. The Democrats obviously are running their incumbent, Joe Biden. Are the Democrats making a mistake running someone in their 80s? Is this part of sleepwalking toward disaster?

Liz Cheney: I think there are a whole range of issues right now that are causing independents to have real concern. I don't hear from people who say to me that they might vote for Trump. I hear from people saying to me, if the Democrats don't get their act together, on the border, for example, you're going to have people who vote for Trump because they think that he's the lesser of two evils here.

I don't think either party's nominee is all sewn up yet, but I think that we face a situation where people could decide, they think it can't possibly be that Trump is this bad, so we're going to go ahead and cast a vote for him. Those are the people that we really have to reach and convince.

David Remnick: Are you ready to pull the lever for Joe Biden, or are you considering running yourself?

Liz Cheney: I have said that I'm going to do whatever it takes to stop Trump, and I haven't made a decision yet about whether or not I'm going to run. I'll make that decision in the next couple of months, but I think all of those options have to be on the table. I do think that we're at a moment in American politics where a third-party option has got to be given consideration that it wouldn't have been before.

David Remnick: I'm assuming neither Cornel West nor Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. excite you.

Liz Cheney: No. That's a correct assumption. [chuckles]

David Remnick: Liz Cheney's new book is called Oath and Honor. Our conversation continues in a moment on The New Yorker Radio Hour.

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David Remnick: This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I'm speaking today with Liz Cheney, the former Republican representative from the state of Wyoming. Cheney is a dyed-in-the-wool Republican. She voted for Donald Trump in 2016 and in 2020, but she broke with him after the 2020 election. Ultimately, she played a major role on Congress's select committee investigating January 6th. She didn't pull any punches in those hearings or in her new book, which is called Oath and Honor.

Earlier in our conversation, I asked if assuming Republicans nominate Donald Trump, she would support Joe Biden, or if Cheney is going to run for president herself on a third-party line. She told us she's weighing those decisions right now. You're an ardent conservative, always have been, you've spent a lot of time lately with Democrats. You've been sitting next to Jamie Raskin and all the people on the committee, not your normal allies in the past. What do you want to say to them about the Democratic Party in order to broaden its appeal?

In other words, in your view as a conservative, what mistakes in terms of policy or appeal or rhetoric or tactics do you want to see the Democrats correct in order to prevent Trump from winning?

Liz Cheney: When I think about what's happening right now in the Democratic Party, the first thing that causes me deep concern is rising antisemitism. I've been very open and clear about antisemitism on the right. We certainly saw that as a big part of January 6th, white supremacy, but what's happening now today is terrifying. When I see people threatening that they're going to take their support away from Joe Biden, away from Democrats if they stand with Israel, if they stand against antisemitism, that's a really dangerous place for the country.

I think across the board on policy issues, what's happening at the border, I would say you've got Democratic mayors and governors around the country saying to the Biden administration, "You have to get control." That kind of the policies that we're seeing or the lack of policies that we're seeing at the border are exactly the kind of thing that could lead people to say, "This chaos is something we can't sustain. We're going to vote for Donald Trump."

I think on issues like crime around the country, I would tell the Democrats, you've got to get your act together on some pretty basic things that ought to be common sense. On the Democratic side, I think people have lost the ability again to talk about the goodness and the greatness of this country. I think that has an impact.

David Remnick: There are a lot of interesting moments in this book. One of them is you write about turning down an invitation to talk to Trump in March 2021. Why did you turn down that opportunity if that's what it was?

Liz Cheney: I was very surprised by this phone call. This was a call from Brian Kilmeade who--

David Remnick: Of Fox News.

Liz Cheney: Yes. I'd known Brian. I was myself an analyst or a contributor at Fox News for a number of years. Brian called me to say, "I think you guys essentially need to bury the hatchet." When he called me, I was surprised, but I also was surprised when I laid out for him why I wouldn't talk to Trump. His response was not--

David Remnick: What was your reasoning? Forgive me for interrupting, but what was your reasoning?

Liz Cheney: No, I said, "We're not having a disagreement here. He violated the Constitution. He went to war with the rule of law. This isn't about burying the hatchet. What he's done is a line that can't be crossed."

David Remnick: You're not disagreeing about tax policy.

Liz Cheney: Right. Brian's response was essentially not to disagree with me. He basically said, "Yes, I realized that. I know that that's the case." He said, "But what if he's our only hope to beat Kamala," which was surprising to me that somebody would sort of say out loud. "Okay, he might be that bad, he might have violated the Constitution, but we got to beat the Democrats."

David Remnick: What does that tell you about him, Kilmeade?

Liz Cheney: I think that he was expressing a view that not only he holds, and I think this is where as people who believe in conservative principles, we have a special duty to say we aren't going to torch the Constitution in order to win the next election.

David Remnick: Yet you voted for Trump in 2020. Was your rationale that really only winning matters here from an ideological point of view, or had the scales not fallen from your eyes yet, it wasn't until the election drama, post-election drama?

Liz Cheney: Well, I certainly wish that I hadn't, but I wouldn't say it was about winning is the only thing that matters. It goes back to what we were discussing earlier, in terms of the policies that really mattered from my perspective, for the people that I was representing. There were many moments where I thought, "All right, look, this is going to proceed now. We've had the election, he lost, and this is going to now become a normal transition." It became clear day by day that that wasn't going to be the case.

David Remnick: You write quite a lot about Mike Johnson, who is now Speaker of the House. As you write, he was one of the main architects of the House's effort to support Trump in overturning the election. How concerning is it to you that he's now the Speaker, a collaborator, as you put it, in the Speaker's chair?

Liz Cheney: It's very concerning. The Speaker of the House is second in line to the presidency behind the vice president. If you think about where we could be, the new Congress will be sworn in on January 3rd, 2025, and the electoral votes will be counted on January 6th. If no candidate has reached 270, then we could have a contingent election. Johnson in the Speaker's chair then, in my view, given what I have seen, given what I know about how he operates, how he operated, he cannot be counted on to put his duty to the Constitution ahead of his determination to appease Donald Trump.

I don't say that lightly. I say that as someone who used to be a friend of Mike's. I considered him a friend, but it's a very real concern. Look, it's not only me. During the period of time that we were having these debates, I was working very closely with Kevin McCarthy's chief counsel and she shared my view. I tell those stories in the book about Johnson's willingness to advocate positions that he knew were constitutionally infirm.

David Remnick: How does he square that with his immense moral bearing?

Liz Cheney: I think that is a question he--

David Remnick: He says everything he believes is in the Bible.

Liz Cheney: Yes. Well, look, certainly, I don't want to question his faith, but what I can tell you is that I watched him operate, and the way he operated was destructive and he advocated things. If you just look at the fact that he stood on the floor of the House and objected to the Arizona electoral votes in a way that would suggest certainly that we should throw out those votes, which would mean throwing out the votes of millions of Americans.

He had never before January 6th, that I knew of, expressed any concern about Arizona's votes. His concerns were all focused on four other states. He had no answer to a really important question that a number of Republicans asked, which was, "If you're worried about rule changes, why are you talking about those states that have changed the rules prior to the election in states where Trump won?" The objections were only focused on states that Biden had won.

Certainly, the objections were being made despite the fact that the courts had ruled already, but I think that's an important insight into what was driving those objections.

David Remnick: I have to ask you, does it feel a little strange to you considering your political career and your voting record to be lionized at least by some on the left at this point?

Liz Cheney: Yes. It's disconcerting.

David Remnick: Yes is the answer. [laughs] It's disconcerting.

Liz Cheney: I'm sure people on the left find it strange also, but I think that it really reflects the unique peril of the moment that we're coming together to say, "Put politics and partisanship aside. There's something much more important that we have to do here."

David Remnick: That's the first line of the book. "This is the story of the moment when American democracy began to unravel." Was it in such good shape before that?

Liz Cheney: Look, it is not a perfect system, obviously, but it's a system that we have been blessed ever since the presidency of George Washington with presidents who recognized and understood their obligation and duty and particularly their obligation and duty to ensure the peaceful transfer of power. We have never had someone who was willing to blow through all of the guardrails. I think that there are always things we can do to help improve our system. You and I might disagree on what some of those are, but you can put in place the most well-organized series of laws.

If you elect somebody who doesn't care, if you elect somebody who refuses to abide by the rulings of the courts, those structures won't save us. It's really the people that do that. We know from testimony in the select committee, and I talk about this in the book, that on January 6th as he sat in his dining room and watched the violence on television, one of the White House employees who testified to the committee told us they saw the note sitting in front of him that said that there'd been a civilian who'd suffered a gunshot wound at the entrance to the House chamber. It sat on the table in front of him.

He knew it, and yet, he still wouldn't tell the mob to stop. He wouldn't tell them to go home. I think that's so important for people to remember what kind of a human being does that, and it seems so clear and so obvious that we can't take the risk of entrusting him with power again.

David Remnick: He has been charged as liable for rape. He has 91 federal counts against him. I could go on and on. Do you think if convicted he should go to jail?

Liz Cheney: I do. Again, that's going to be up to our justice system, to a jury of his peers, to the judges involved. I think it's fundamental to who we are as a country that no person's above the law, and if he is convicted and sentenced to serve time, I think certainly that's what has to happen.

David Remnick: Liz Cheney, thank you very much.

Liz Cheney: Thank you, David. Wonderful to be with you.

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David Remnick: Liz Cheney is a former representative from the state of Wyoming. Her new book has the title, Oath and Honor: A Memoir and a Warning.

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