Rita: I am Rita. I'm from China.

Tom: I'm Tom. I'm from Virginia.

Rita: We've been together for seven years, and we've been married for two years.

Speaker 3: I am a Palestinian American and my partner is American-American, born and raised in Arkansas and Alaska.

Speaker 4: I am from India. My partner at the time was Christian, and I am practicing Hinduism.

Speaker 5: I am Arab American. My partner is an immigrant from Honduras.

Speaker 6: My boyfriend is a white guy. I'm a Black person. We're going on seven years, so it's going well.

Speaker 7: It's a lot about celebrating cultural differences, embracing them. You just hang out with people that are exactly the same as you, you're not going to know how other people live, how other people see other people, and I think that really impacts the way that you see the world.

[pause 00:00:50]

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Kai Wright: It's Notes From America. I'm Kai Wright. Welcome to the show. As just about anyone will tell you, we live in polarized times, particularly when it comes to questions of identity like race, culture, and gender. There is certainly ample evidence of that truth, but there's another truth too. One that gets obscured by the politics of it all. American culture is perhaps more embracing of its true diversity and huge differences than ever before. Maybe that's why some people are mad about it. Anyway, our growing cultural diversity is at this point, baked into the future.

Within the next 20 years, the majority of Americans will identify as something other than white. That's already the case in four states. In the 2020 census, nearly 40 million people identified themselves as multiracial. That was almost a 300% increase from a decade before. Perhaps that stat is tied in some way to another bit of census data. The growing number of married couples that identify themselves as interracial or inter-ethnic relationships of some sort, it's now at more than 10%, which may not seem like a lot at first, but then I think about the fact that my mother was a full-grown adult by the time the Supreme Court struck down laws banning interracial marriage.

All that data is also just about marriage. That's before we get to all the other ways in which we share intimacy these days, across race and across culture and across ethnicity. Here's the point. Valentine's Day is this week, and on this show, we embrace chances to celebrate love. We wondered what might we learn about ourselves and about each other if we spent some time talking about love across differences. Our phones are open. Here's my question for you. If you are in an intimate relationship with someone of a different racial, ethnic, or cultural background, what is something you learned about yourself?

Note that I did not ask you what you learned about other people and their backgrounds. That's a whole different conversation than the one we are trying to have this week. I want to know what you learned or are still learning about yourself. It does not have to be some profound sociological study. We can also have some fun with this. We're talking about love after all. Call us or text us people who are in or have been in intimate relationships with someone of a different racial, ethnic, or cultural background. As we take your calls, I am joined by a sociologist who does have some profound thoughts on the subject.

Marya T. Mtshali is an assistant professor of sociology at Bucknell University. She studies intersectional theory, and she is completing a book entitled (In)Visible Terrains: Race, Gender, and Heterosexuality in the Lives of Interracial Couples. Thanks for joining us.

Marya T. Mtshali: Thanks for having me.

Kai Wright: As a sociologist, your area of expertise is intersectionality. More specifically, a lot of your research has centered on intercultural relationships and the patterns we get from studying them. What got you interested in this subject?

Marya T. Mtshali: If I'm honest, intersectionality is just a love of mine in general. That's actually where it started, that predates the interest interracial couples. I'm very interested in, where we are situated within society, along structures of race, gender, class, et cetera, how that impacts how society interacts with us and how we interact with society. I thought the interracial relationships would be a great nexus point to do a comparative analysis to get further insights to not just what it's like living in society with all these different structures and hierarchies around again, race, gender, and class, for example, but also too, what it's like navigating that across relationships. The more micro-level social interactions that I wanted to take a look at.

Kai Wright: As you started studying it, I gather the way the subject was framed caused you some pause right from the beginning. Talk about that. What did you see in how it was framed and how it was being presented that made you be like, "Wait."

Marya T. Mtshali: At the time I was in grad school, and it was actually a class that I took on race, class, and gender. We did a unit looking at interracial couples. I was surprised by one study done by Dr. Amy Steinbugler where she was looking at Black men and white women who were in relationships and their experiences, and comparing that to Black women and white men. I was really interested by the different experiences they had when it came to social interactions on public. Up to this point, most of the discussion that I heard around interracial couples, particularly within our society, seemed like it was actually based off the experience of Black men and white women.

It hadn't really been nuanced to take into account how intersections of different identities can impact how these interactions with others played out. I remember going to my professor at the time, and I said I would love to find more information about Black women and white men in relationships just to see how this differs more if at all. I was looking around, I'm just struggling to find stuff, and he had told me at the time, he's like, "Yes, unfortunately, there's not a lot there. Most of it is actually on Black men and white women and their relationships."

For me, I was annoyed that there wasn't more resource. I'm like, "Why? Why not?" That got me moving forward to deciding that I wanted to take on this research. Again, not just to look at it from an intersectional lens and doing this comparison, but also, too, trying to add to the literature out there to understand how different types of interracial relationships experience navigating race, gender, and other categories of difference in our society.

Kai Wright: Why not, to answer the question you raised because frankly, it doesn't surprise me on one level because certainly, the public conversation about interracial relationships or intercultural relationships is uniquely focused on Black men and white women. Spell out why you think that's the case and why we even see it in the research.

Marya T. Mtshali: It's a couple of things. The first thing that we have is that in our society, to your point, when we think about interracial relationships through most of our history, any type of interracial relation, I should say, maybe not always relationships, it's been this idea of Black men and white women. One thing we have is why we see most of the literature reflecting this is, that is what's often in the cultural imagination. There is a long-standing taboo against relationships of any kind that were romantic or sexual between Black men and white women.

Part of this played into, and even still present to this day, cultural anxieties around white racial purity. Particularly in a society that has often looked at women as being the ones to maintain racial purity for racial groups, anxieties around Black male sexuality, Black male supposed sexual prowess. Then the reality is, too, when we look at this, whether within our country or across the globe, white men having access to the bodies of women of color has been a given. It's been highly problematic, obviously, but it's been a given. This concern that we saw particularly historically, about men of color having access to white women sexually, romantically, being an anxiety and a concern.

Then also I would add the last piece is that, in our society, when we think about race or racial relations, we tend to often think about it in very Black and white terms. I'm not trying to do a metaphor here, but it also happens to work. We do tend to look at it like Black and white.

Kai Wright: It's the Black, white variety, period. If we're talking race, that's as far as we get. We are hoping to broaden that conversation in this hour. Just to be clear, we're looking for stories and lessons for anybody, whatever kind of cross-cultural relationship you're in. As we head to a break, what about yourself? Can I put the question that we're putting to the audience, to you? What have you learned about yourself in the course of dating people across cultural boundaries?

Marya T. Mtshali: Kai, if I'm honest, you're not going to like my answer.

Kai Wright: Uh-oh. Okay, all right. Your answer is your answer. I like it, whatever it is.

Marya T. Mtshali: Okay, sounds good. It's because I'm a sociologist, I'm a little biased. I say bias in the sense of, I came with a certain level of knowledge once I started dating interracially. I'd say, for me, I was more surprised about what I learned about other people.

Kai Wright: Oh, you were [unintelligible 00:10:24]

Marya T. Mtshali: That's why I told you you weren't going to like it.

Kai Wright: Give me a little bit of that.

Marya T. Mtshali: I would say that because I was very surprised by people's reactions, I found, in my personal experience, that people's reactions are a bit of a war shock test for their own anxieties or feelings about race. I've experienced everything from overly approving. For example, a former partner and I being at a concert, and a white man going out of his way to come over to us and tell us how proud he was.

Kai Wright: Really?

Marya T. Mtshali: To people who want to make it really clear that they don't see race, they don't see color, but then they start asking questions that are definitely couched within racial stereotypes. Then, of course, people who have been shocked and stared openly a foot away from us, things along those lines. I think as much as I had an awareness from a sociological perspective, I was still a little bit optimistic maybe in some of the responses. Also too, people who have acted like we're just like any other couple, which I also appreciate.

Kai Wright: Actually, awesome, I appreciate that framing that it's almost like a cultural Rorschach test, that people see what they want to see on you and your relationship, which has nothing to do with you and your actual relationship 9 times out of 10. There is some lessons in that. This is Notes From America. I'm Kai Wright. I'm talking with Bucknell University sociologist, Marya T. Mtshali, about love across differences. We're going to take your calls if you are in or have been in a relationship with someone of a different racial, ethnic, or cultural background, we want to know what's something you learned about yourself. You can call or you can text us to tell me what you've learned about yourself if you found yourself in a relationship with somebody that's real different than you. Your calls and more coming up, stay with us.

[pause 00:12:17]

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Regina: Hi, I'm Regina, a producer here at Notes from America with Kai Wright. I hope you're loving this episode, and I know you want to get back to it as soon as possible. Before we get back to it, I need to tell you something. As you know, we cover a lot of issues and ideas on this podcast and we don't want to do it without you. Having your questions, stories, and experiences in the conversation is so important to us, so let me tell you how to be in touch. In the show notes of this episode, there's a link that takes you to our website, notesfromamerica.org, where you can record a message for us. Plus our inbox is always open at notes@wnyc.org. You can write us, or even better, record a voice memo on your phone and send it to us there. Again, that's notes@wnyc.org. I'll be looking there for a note from you soon. All right, thanks for listening.

[music]

Speaker 11: I thought that because I'm such a multicultural person that it would be really easy to navigate personal relationships, and I thought it would be a lot easier than it actually is.

Speaker 12: With any people, no matter what culture you're coming from or what background you're coming from, you're always going to find differences.

Speaker 13: Every relationship is unique. There is no key to success and everyone as an individual. We talked about what works for us.

Speaker 14: Even though we are like two brown people from marginalized cultures, there's still so many complicated things to navigate.

Speaker 15: My dad is the white one, my mom is the Black one, and after 26 years, there's really no differences anymore. They're pretty much blended together.

Speaker 16: The discussions that my husband and I have had have made me realize that I have my own prejudices that I am putting on other people and that I'm painting other people in a certain light because of the way that I've seen other people like them react.

Speaker 17: I'm actually adopted. Both of my parents are white. As a Black person in America, there are just so many things they don't understand, and they're not willing or ready to learn about and accept.

Speaker 18: I have learned that you really don't know what a person's day-to-day life is like, or someone from another culture's day-to-day life is like unless you're spending the day-to-day with them.

Kai Wright: This is Notes From America, I'm Kai Wright, and we are talking this week about love. Really, any kind of intimate relationship with people from a different cultural or racial or ethnic or whatever background than your own. If you are in an intimate relationship with someone of a different racial or ethnic or cultural background, what's something you've learned about yourself? Let's go to Summer in Chicago. Summer, welcome to the show.

Summer: Hello. Thank you.

Kai Wright: What's something you learned about yourself, Summer?

Summer: I come from an interracial background myself here in Chicago. Black dad, white mother. I married a Ukrainian American, and I was surprised to learn how much we actually had in common, both being on the outside of multiple cultures. You've heard the stereotype of mixed people being either both and or neither of white or Black culture. Him coming from an immigrant background, he understands not feeling fully at home in any place either, so we could relate there.

Kai Wright: Wow. You learned despite the difference, you actually had this commonality.

Summer: Yes, exactly. We spotted it from Day 1 when we met. Another key thing we've learned is that you really have to defend the culture that you want to impart to your own children because America can be assimilatory. We want to raise our child speaking Ukrainian first and understanding some of the Black culture I've come from. It's a really important task.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that Summer. Let's go to Misha in Minnesota. Misha, welcome to the show.

Misha: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having this topic on the radio. It's awesome to hear it while I'm driving.

Kai Wright: I hope you're not driving currently Misha.

Misha: I am hands-free.

Kai Wright: [laughs] All right, quickly, what did you learn about yourself?

Misha: What I learned about myself is how not to be so hypocritical when dealing with hypersensitivity around race, stereotypes, tropes. We're quick to make fun of whites who don't have rhythm, and all this kind of stuff, like their food is just bland with salt and pepper. It's a joke, and it didn't dawn on me that my husband, I'm African American, he's white, we have been married for almost 23 years now, and those things bothered him, and it hurt his feelings. When he would say certain things or he would be around people saying certain things that I found inappropriate about African Americans or anybody of color, I would just ride him like a horse with no saddle.

Later on, he pretty much told me, "Did it dawn on you that that hurt my feelings, but I'm not allowed to express that that bothers me?" What I learned about myself is to be more open, be more understanding, and be more cognizant of the other side.

Kai Wright: Okay. Thank you for that, Misha, and safe driving. We're going to keep taking your calls. We're asking if you are in an intimate relationship or have been intimate relationship with someone of a different racial, ethnic, or cultural background. Tell us what you've learned about yourself. I've been talking with Bucknell University sociologist, Marya T. Mtshali. Now let's welcome Lamar Dawson. He's the host of TikTok Radio, a channel dedicated to pop culture on SiriusXM. Welcome to the show, Lamar.

Lamar Dawson: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Kai Wright: We were introduced to you, Lamar, through your very popular series of satirical essays in HuffPost RMP, which were called The Black Gay Man's Guide to Interracial Dating. What inspired that series?

Lamar Dawson: My experiences with interracial dating- [laughs]

Kai Wright: Right. Fair enough.

Lamar Dawson: -and the challenges and the crazy things I would encounter. I would talk about it with my friends, and I wanted to talk about it publicly. I've written all the articles, to your point, around race, interracial dating in a very satirical way because I wanted to use humor as a way into the conversation because you know how it is, you start bringing up race and people get crazy. You want to be able to have the conversation and start with humor, from my perspective, as a way to disarm, break it down, and go, "Oh, I get it." I think a lot of people appreciated that POV.

Kai Wright: It included tips like, "Let your date shower you with compliments, like asking if you're mixed or biracial, [laughs] telling you about their other Black ex." It's a fun read, but I gather not everyone got the joke, right?

Lamar Dawson: Yes, I got a lot of hate mail. It's funny, I got a lot of people saying, "Oh my gosh, this is my experience. Of course, those are Black people and people of color saying, "I appreciate this, this is my opinion," or, "This is also my experience." Also a lot of white folks who were triggered, I think, by it and didn't really appreciate it, but also didn't recognize the intent versus the impact of some of those remarks that they might say as off the cuff or jokes or what have you, or "well-meaning things," but the impact is very, very harmful.

Kai Wright: Like our caller from Minnesota just said, about a Black woman talking about her white partner where she didn't realize she was actually hurting his feelings.

Lamar Dawson: Right.

Kai Wright: What other kinds of responses did you get though? You got positive responses, you got negative response. What are some of the positive responses you got?

Lamar Dawson: People were really laughing at their experiences when they-- How do I say this? People were connecting with the examples because they've experienced it quite a bit in their life. For example, when they go to a restaurant and the white partner is given the check or is greeted, first of all, which is one route, but okay, you assume this person is going to pay the bill, why? You know what I mean?

They were also recognizing that this happens to me all the time. We joke about it now, otherwise, we'd drive ourselves crazy. They appreciated the levity behind it, but also, there's a little bit of pain behind it too, where it's like, you're making assumptions about me because of my race, and these are deeper issues that have to be unpacked.

Kai Wright: Let's bring our sociologist back into the conversation. Marya, what's the value of having a conversation like this? It's, you study it academically, Lamar is cracking jokes about it, so some people get in their feelings about it. What can we really be learning about our society by talking about this?

Marya T. Mtshali: I would say, it's important to have these conversations. Interracial couples are often having these conversations a little bit more for reasons that probably appear a bit obvious because they have to deal with formulations across race all the time. I think humor is a good way to bring this conversation up as well, but obviously, as Lamar mentioned, there's a lot of different feelings that come up. I think that's also sociology. That's data. It says a lot about how comfortable people feel about having this kind of mirror turned onto them. I have to say too, I love the piece. I laughed a lot [crosstalk]

Kai Wright: Thank you.

Marya T. Mtshali: It resonated, sadly. I think, too, it's important to have these conversations because the reality is we're in a multiracial society, and America is also an experiment in a lot of ways too. We are constantly, it feels like, going through growing pains. As we're watching our country evolve to being a more multiracial country, we're going to have to have a lot more of these conversations because it's going to change up the status quo. It's going to change what things look like. It's going to change who's in power in different ways.

We're seeing a representation of people of color, of queer people in different positions and spaces. Talking about is important, that's one piece. Also two, and I think we could see this a little bit from Lamar's experience, you got to be willing to listen. You need to be willing, especially if you're in a place of privilege, decentering your experience and listening to the experience of others, and time to, I guess, reflect and think about how we as a society, whether in these smaller relationships we have or as a society, how we can continue to move forward and celebrate our diversity culturally and racially, but also do so in a way that everyone can feel they can have their full humanity respected and actualized.

Kai Wright: That's right. Let's go to Brian in Middletown, Connecticut. Brian, welcome to the show.

Brian: Hi. How are you?

Kai Wright: Very well. What have you learned about yourself, Brian?

Brian: Yes, no, for me, I was explaining that I was in a relationship with someone who's very different from my own background. I'm white male, Irish Catholic. Grew up in a suburban community, and was from a very traditional, conservative religious family, and was dating someone in college who was very different in terms of their background. They were Spanish Sephardic Jewish from the city. Very secular, politically liberal. I was politically conservative at the time, years ago, but I think as part of that experience, I learned for myself that what I had assumed all of my life to be the correct kind of worldview or my own perspective on things, I always thought that I was right, and someone who disagreed with me or had different views was just not as well informed, or wasn't correct.

Kai Wright: That may be true. You may actually be more informed than everybody else. Sorry, go ahead.

Brian: Oh, no, no, no. [laughs] Yes, that's what I thought, but after having met him, I think there's a lot that I had to learn through the relationship and through those differences about his experiences as an individual, and as someone who didn't have my background or my privilege, that there were things that, at the time, I think I didn't understand or acknowledge that he may have been experiencing. Just learning that I need to not assume that my viewpoint was the only one and the only correct one.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that, Brian. Anything in what Brian was saying stand out to you? Lamar, you were nodding along a little bit.

Lamar Dawson: Yes. I think the biggest thing is that self-reflection and recognizing, oh, I don't know all these things. I try not to fault people. You can't because people are a product of their environment. You grow up in a place with your family that you're born into, and then you go off to college where this is a huge, mixed salad. I don't like melting pot. I like to say it's a tossed salad.

Kai Wright: That's right.

Lamar Dawson: You know what I mean? Then everyone is there, and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm exposed to different people, viewpoints, ideas, opinions, et cetera. I'm questioning everything." This is a good thing. I think it's a really great thing if it doesn't break up the relationship, [laughter] you know?

Kai Wright: Indeed. In preparation for this conversation, we put a poll on our Instagram. That's Notes with Kai, by the way. We asked our followers if they had been in any kind of intercultural relationship. 77% said yes. Does that surprise you, Professor Mtshali, given your research?

Marya T. Mtshali: Yes and no. [laughs] I say yes because that's likely not reflective of the average American, but I think that might be reflective of the listeners.

Kai Wright: Oh, the Notes from America listeners? Good job, guys.

Marya T. Mtshali: Yes. I'm like, "Oh gosh." I'm like, "How do I say this?" The impression that we get often is that people who are listening to NPR tend to be also proportionately more likely have gone to college. We know in our society, that there's a correlation between going to college and being more likely to date outside your race. I think part of what Lamar is talking about hits upon that, is the exposure to people of different backgrounds, different groups. The normalization of, instead of seeing certain groups of people on TV or having this kind of arms reach where they're like acquaintances or people live down the street, you're sharing dorms together.

You're in clubs together, meetings together, parties together. It minimizes that social distance, and can make the possibility of dating outside one's race seem more realistic, not as scary. I think that's one of the reasons why we do see that correlation with education. That's my response to that as a sociologist.

Kai Wright: We'll take it. Lamar, according to another piece of Census Bureau data, 31% of married same-sex couples were interracial in 2022, which is much higher than the 19% of married opposite-sex couples in that same piece of data. The same difference, we see it with unmarried couples, though less dramatically. Does that number surprise you in any way? Is it meaningless data or does it mean something to you?

Lamar Dawson: I don't know where to start because how much time do we have? I have some opinions on this.

Kai Wright: We have about three minutes before break.

Lamar Dawson: Here are my thoughts. I think within queer media and movies, you do see much more representation on the interracial, intercultural relationships. Just about every gay character on TV or in movies, it's a Black and white person. Single All the Way, big holiday movie upcoming Billy Porter with, I think, Luke Evans film coming out. Just about every- Family Stone, if you remember that, watching that during the holidays-

Kai Wright: I do.

Lamar Dawson: -it's always a Black and white couple.

Kai Wright: It really is.

Lamar Dawson: I do think that, on the one hand, it helps normalize it, and I'm not going to have the right sociologist language, so bear with me.

Kai Wright: We didn't invite you here to do that.

Lamar Dawson: Okay, good.

Kai Wright: What we need from you is expertise on pop culture, and you're giving it to us.

Lamar Dawson: Exactly. Perfect. You're seeing that across the board. I think it does help normalize it for a lot of people and go, "Oh, I can do that too. I can date someone outside my race. It's not a big deal," because it's pretty much like the norm, if you will. However, I do see that there's this, I don't know what it is, I call it an epidemic, I'm not going to even sugarcoat it, where I do see a lot more people of color who seem to be going after a white partner. It almost feels deliberate in my opinion.

Kai Wright: Interesting.

Lamar Dawson: I've got a lot of thoughts on this.

Kai Wright: Explosive.

Lamar Dawson: Yes. I'm going to get canceled probably, but I do feel like I see this quite a bit, where I always joke with my friends. I always say, "I'm going to write a book that says every Black man I'm into has a white boyfriend. Every time I meet a Black person and I go to their Instagram, white boyfriend." I will bet my retirement on it, they're going to have a white boyfriend.

Kai Wright: Lamar, I got to tell you something.

Lamar Dawson: Tell me.

Kai Wright: I have a white boyfriend of 18 years.

Lamar Dawson: Exactly.

[laughter]

Lamar Dawson: Let me be clear. There's nothing wrong with that. [laughs] If we brought a bunch of Black gay men in here right now, line them up and pick--

Kai Wright: I think you're right.

Lamar Dawson: Yes, there's something there.

Kai Wright: What is there?

Lamar Dawson: [sighs] Dude, I have so many thoughts on this. I think there's a bit of insecurities. I do think that you have a population, I'm talking about just gay men, just my experience, of people who are typically unloved, cast aside, looking for love, fighting for their lives for survival. We know that overall, your proximity to whiteness aids in your survival in life as a person of color. Now you compound that with being gay, it almost feels intentional, even if they're not really doing it that way, but I think there's something there. I don't have the language.

Kai Wright: You gave it a good shot. I think there's something there. This is Notes from America, I'm Kai Wright. We're talking about love across differences, and we're taking your calls. If you have been in or are in a relationship across race, ethnicity, religion, we want to hear from you. Also, we can start hearing from you for non-romantic relationships; family, friends, special friends, if you know what I mean. More of your calls coming up, stay with us.

[pause 00:30:59]

[theme music]

Kai Wright: This is Notes from America, I'm Kai Wright. In advance of Valentine's Day, we're talking about love. Specifically, we're asking what we can learn about ourselves and our society from people who are in relationships with someone of a different racial, ethnic, or cultural background. I'm joined by Bucknell University sociologist, Marya T. Mtshali, and Lamar Dawson, host for TikTok Radio, which is a channel dedicated to pop culture on SiriusXM. If you are in or have been in an intimate relationship with someone of a different background, we want to hear from you. Also, we can start hearing about other kinds of relationships; besties, special friends, family, what you have learned about yourself from that intercultural relationship. Let's go to Caleb in Brooklyn, New York. Caleb, welcome to the show.

Caleb: Hey, how y'all doing tonight?

Kai Wright: Very well. What have you learned, Caleb?

Caleb: Some 45-year-old white man. My family was from South Carolina originally, but I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and was born there. Grandma was Southern Baptist, she died at 98, then I realize now how much work she did to move away from a lot of the inherent racism for white folks in the South. I've dated pretty much exclusively people of color from different ethnicities since I was about 20 years old. I have two children that are mixed race, their mother was born in Cairo and is Egyptian. One of my first relationships with a man when I was 19, a Black man, he shared with me some of the incredibly racist and discriminatory experiences that he had experienced in his life and that his mother had experienced as well.

I remember being really shocked by some of those stories, to hear that those things still happened. I think I grew up in somewhat of one of those liberal white households where color wasn't really brought up and wasn't seen, and so that left me somewhat ignorant to those things, but my mother was a single mother on welfare and housing subsidies, raising two boys. That taught me that I needed to wake up a little bit and open my eyes to what was still happening in the world and that it wasn't the responsibility of the people of color that I was dating to clue me into the racism that they were still experiencing on a daily basis.

Then something else that came up for me later on, when I was dating a mixed-race Asian woman, and we'd been together for some time, and there was a lot of comfort there and we talked about race a lot, where I made a joke about something stereotypical about Asian folks in front of another white person, thinking that it was camaraderie, and obviously, I was joking, and it was me acknowledging the racism that that person experienced, but she was really hurt by that. It wasn't okay for her, and rightly so. That was another wake-up call for me. I think that vulnerability is important to understand that I have to unpack my own internalized racism.

Kai Wright: I'm going to leave it there, Caleb, because we got a bunch of calls, but vulnerability, is an important takeaway from that story. Let's go to Ami in Fairfield, Connecticut. Ami, welcome to the show.

Ami: Hello, Kai.

Kai Wright: Hello.

Ami: I think for me what I've learned, or maybe the message I want to put out there is that it's great because I'm a Black woman. I was married to a white man for over a decade, and it did not work out, but I grew up in a culture where I just took race for granted. It wasn't anything. It's funny actually, we have a daughter, and she was seven years old and came home and said to me, "Mom, do you realize you're a Black woman?" I'm like, "Yes, I look in the mirror every day," because to her, she didn't understand. It wasn't something that was in the conversation or even thought of because I'm from a different cultural background, I wasn't born in America.

She's like, "Oh, I thought Daddy just needed to get out more and get a tan." [laughter] I was like, "No, that's not how it works." When things did not work out, the message I want to say to people is that maybe if you're a person of privilege, or you're looked at as being the more advantageous one, to be mindful of those things because other people can get in and make assumptions. In my case, going through a divorce, assumptions were made that were extremely detrimental, but that was based on other people's prejudices, that then ended up impacting our life and impacting our family's lives. That's my message.

Kai Wright: I'm sorry that happened to you.

Ami: Be the keepers of the people you've loved before because it may not be you who's doing it, but it may be assumptions that are coming from other people. We all want to be advantaged, and it becomes a problem. That's all I want to say.

Kai Wright: Thank you very much for that, Ami, and I'm sorry that that happened to you. We have a text message from somebody that says, "I'm a Black woman married to a white man. We are both in our late 60s, I have found that our differences are more based on socioeconomic class, rather than race. He is from a working-class background and my family is multigenerational upper-middle-class background. He jokes that I married--" I won't use the slur that she says, [chuckles] but he has a derisive name for poor white people, that he says that she jokes he married. Professor, what about class? How often does that come up?

Marya T. Mtshali: Class is really important. I would say too, from my research, I found that you can't put one category of difference as higher than the other. I think our society, when we talk about interracial relationships, or just interracial mixing in our society in various ways, whether friendship in the workplace, whatever, we tend to make race as the main thing that can cause conflict or cause other differences, but all these categories, I would say are pretty important. Yes, class definitely plays a role in a lot of different ways. For instance- how do I say it- in America, we are really bad talking about class, I think I'll start there.

We fail to understand or want to understand that with class comes a certain culture. There's class cultures. When you bring in a section of race into that, that also means a different culture too, when it comes to ways in which race and culture can overlap. That can affect everything from how you talk about money, how you deal with money, to how you talk about race as another thing as well. We know, for instance, that people coming often from low-income backgrounds, on average tend to talk about race in a much more straightforward, direct way, for instance, than people coming from middle-upper-class backgrounds, particularly when we're talking about white middle-upper-class people.

It impacts, again, everything from the conversations being had to how you approach things in your relationship. I would say, too, probably also how you see one another within your relationship as well, especially if you are in positions where you push back against stereotypes about what it means to be a white man or to be a Black woman using this particular example.

Kai Wright: Another piece of data that I want to ask you about, though, is, it feels to me like we need to be specific when we talk about this growth in people across interracial, particularly in interethnic relationships. Is it true as I understand it, the most common interracial relationships are actually white non-Hispanic, and white Hispanic pairings? Is that true? If so, what does that say?

Marya T. Mtshali: Yes. That's [unintelligible 00:39:31] racial, interethnic is really what we're talking about there, but yes, it's the most common one. The reality is, it goes back to the concept of race as a master status in some ways. In our society, if you are a red as white, people tend to interact with you as if you're white. For example, I remember making a comment when I was doing my research to some people about Cameron Diaz being Latina, and they were like, "What do you mean she's Latina?" she's Latina?" I'm like, "Cameron Diaz, she has Latina ancestry. They're like, "She's white." I'm like, "Yes, but she's also Latina."

Lamar Dawson: Her last name is Diaz.

Marya T. Mtshali: Yes, right.

Lamar Dawson: Hello.

Marya T. Mtshali: Or even the concept of Black Hispanics or Black Latinx people, I realize people struggle with that too, as well. It's this master status thing. My point being that it's not such a leap often for these couples who white non-Hispanic for White Hispanic, where often they're interacting in a society that often treats them as white. For all kinds of intents and purposes, I would say that they're [crosstalk]

Lamar Dawson: Have you researched this concept? I was talking to a friend of mine, he's Mexican, he dates a lot of white women. He feels bad about it, but he talks about how his family talks about bettering the race. Do you know about this concept? This is new to me.

Marya T. Mtshali: Can you elaborate? That can mean different things.

Lamar Dawson: What he told me it meant from his Mexican family is that when you "do better" you date better. You need to better the race by, one, dating someone lighter skinned to make sure that we are now lighter skinned, and also, again, your proximity to whiteness. Now you can date a white person because you've done so well in your life. He's a filmmaker. He owned that story. He told me that came from his family. He's dating white women. He feels bad about it, but it's something that he said is deeply rooted; bettering the race.

Marya T. Mtshali: Anecdotally, yes, I have seen that a lot. Particularly from a lot of communities of color, not everybody obviously feels this way, but that concept does come up. I would say the only group for the most part I haven't seen that has been Black Americans born in the United States. I think that cultural aspect is important because I have heard from my own research--

Kai Wright: Why so? Why do you think that's different?

Marya T. Mtshali: I think, for Black Americans in the United States, we have a very different way of looking at ourselves as a racial group. I would say, as a minority group in the United States, there's a big focus on racial solidarity. This idea that if you move up socioeconomically or in other ways status-wise, the idea is that you're encouraged to stay within your race when it comes to dating. I can elaborate more if you have time. I know we have limited time, but it's a very different way of looking at racial solidarity within Black communities.

There's a very much awareness of internalized racism as well. A lot of fears and concerns for Black people who are dating outside the race, for instance, that they're suffering from internalized racism, and that is why they're dating outside their race. That's not correct. Doesn't mean it never is, but there's a lot more discussion around that that we see in Black American communities, than we may see with other racial groups or Black Americans who have immigrated to United States, and therefore, raised within other cultures.

Kai Wright: Let's try to get another call. Let's go to Catherine in Dallas. Catherine, welcome to the show.

Catherine: Hi, how are y'all doing?

Kai Wright: Very well, Catherine. What have you learned?

Catherine: I am a biracial woman, obviously a product of an interracial relationship. Long story short, I know we've grown up in a time where this generation has for sure, where love is love and I completely agree and everything. The reality is, just no matter how much love and good intent that you may have, there are reactions to your actions, whether it's good and/or bad. I'm just speaking on an interracial relationship, but deciding to do that, just know your kids are going to have identity issues. I just want to remind people whether they're Black, white, Hispanic, whatever, be mindful about, maybe even something as minor as microaggressions or things that you say that you may not think is prejudiced or could come off, I don't know, with ill intent, but does.

Kai Wright: Mindfulness. This feels like a theme of tonight's conversation. Thank you for that, Catherine. Let's go to Morella in Raleigh, North Carolina. Morella, welcome to the show.

Morella: Oh, thank you. I am Latina Mexican and my husband is Southeast Asian. I come from a very strong Catholic family and my husband is Muslim. One thing we have learned in these 13 years of marriage is tolerance is very important. Respect and communication. Why? Because if you know how to communicate with your partner, there's a common denominator in there. We love each other. Yes, we do. We know love is in there. Love is not everything in a relationship. There's different pillars to hold your strong relationship. Communication is so important, what you like, what you don't like.

Tolerance, this is what I like and you do it differently. At the end of the day, we both know what's good, we both know what's bad. We have a child, she's six years old, and we both talk to her. She knows she's Catholic and Muslim. Now, some people comes and says, "How is that possible?" Communication. Now, my daughter is learning. She goes to church with me. My husband comes to church with me. I go to the mosque with him. I respect, I learn from his religion. He learns from my religion, and we have friends from different backgrounds.

Kai Wright: I'm going to have to stop you there, Morella, sorry to say it because we're about to run out of time. Respect, tolerance, patience, these are things that are coming up. First off, I want to acknowledge a text message we received that says, you guys moved on from that, why Black gay men are dating white men too much, I think a little too fast, so I just want to acknowledge that text message.

Lamar Dawson: We got to have a Part 2.

Kai Wright: Closing thoughts for us. I'm particularly thinking about, in about a minute here, how you've seen this portrayed over time in pop culture. You've talked about it amongst gay-specific movies, but in general, how have you seen this change?

Lamar Dawson: I do feel like Hollywood is trying to be more inclusive, but I do feel like they're checking boxes. I do think there is nuance there where it's like there are Black love stories and Latino, Latinx, Hispanic love stories, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas what they're doing it seems like is, okay, we got a Black dad, the white mom, we can check all the boxes here. We got interracial. They're not taking the time to recognize that they're not really reflecting true families and role modeling that for everyone else, and how important that really is because when you are a person who's trying to navigate and find love in a hopeless place, like on these dating apps and things, it is very, very tough.

Then when you don't see relationships that look like yours or what you're seeking, it can be very, very hard. Everyone talks about movie star looks and things like that, but if you're not a movie star, you don't have the looks because you're not there.

Kai Wright: Because you're literally not a movie star.

Lamar Dawson: Exactly. You know what I mean? Because people are like you aren't movie stars. It's really important to bring us to this representation visibility, inclusivity, et cetera, that is really important to have those conversations as well.

Kai Wright: Professor Mtshali, we got about 30 seconds for you. Where do you want to leave people with in this conversation?

Marya T. Mtshali: I would say too, one, this is my 30 seconds, is that the identity issues thing, I just want to touch upon that.

Kai Wright: Please.

Marya T. Mtshali: I think this can be expanded to other things that we talked about, which is that, for a lot of biracial children, they actually don't have identity issues. It's the society that has identity issues. These kids know who they are, but people are trying to put things on top of them and categories. It's the same can be said when it comes to queer people. I'm bisexual myself, my partner is a lesbian. People say, "Oh, life is going to be so hard for you." It's like, no, life may be hard, but I'm not the problem. It's that people outside are making it hard for me.

I think we need to recognize and have that awareness. The representation too, I think is key, and to Lamar's point, more of that, but have it be real. These couples often, they portray them, it's like, race is never a problem. Let's talk about how people work through that and model good examples of what that looks like.

Kai Wright: We will leave it at that good word. Marya T. Mtshali is an assistant professor of sociology at Bucknell University. Lamar Dawson is host of TikTok Radio, a channel dedicated to pop culture on SiriusXM. Thanks to both of you. Thanks to everybody who called. You can keep talking to us, 844-745-TALK. Just leave a voicemail or email us at notes@wnyc.org. Notes from America is a production of WNYC Studios. Follow us wherever you get your podcast or on Instagram @noteswithkai. This episode was produced by Regina de Heer. Our team also includes Matthew Marando, Jared Paul, Karen Frillman, Suzanne Gaber, Mike Kutchman, Felice León, [Katerina Barton] and Lindsay Foster Thomas, and I'm Kai Wright. Thanks for spending time with us.

 

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