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Speaker 1: Do you feel like the upcoming election would have been simpler for you before Gaza?

Speaker 2: It was a hard decision before and now it's even a harder decision.

Speaker 3: I don't know yet. Definitely not voting for genocide Joe.

Speaker 4: I'm definitely not voting for Biden.

Speaker 5: No, because I've always known no one really cares about Muslims or has a genuine interest or lookout for Muslims. It's all about votes.

Speaker 6: I feel like both parties don't hear us. It's just really unfortunate.

Speaker 7: We did put uncommitted, I know that eventually, you do have to put an actual vote, but if it was between Biden or Trump, I would probably go with Trump.

Speaker 8: It's definitely more complicated. It just really shows that our systems have really failed us.

Speaker 9: We'll remain uncommitted until there is legal change happening to protect our tax dollars where it's going and also protect innocent civilians overseas.

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Kai Wright: It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. Welcome to the show. Six months ago, it seemed clear what would motivate or depress the engagement of people in this presidential election to typically vote for Democratic candidates, reproductive rights, inflation, terror of Donald Trump, all those things are still on a lot of minds, but for a meaningful number of would-be Democrats. It's now clear that the Biden administration's response to Israel's invasion of Gaza has become the defining issue in this election, and maybe even in their future relationship to politics more broadly.

Michigan, which is of course an enormously consequential state in terms of electoral college math, more than 100,000 people showed up at the Democratic primary to vote uncommitted rather than endorse Joe Biden. In Minnesota, 19% of primary voters did the same, and similar campaigns are happening around the country. Meanwhile, last week, amid negotiations for a ceasefire and hostage exchange, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu approved plans for a ground offensive in Rafah. That's where more than a million already displaced people have sought refuge.

President Biden has called a Rafa offensive a "red line" unless Israel demonstrates a "credible and executable plan for the safety of civilians." This week, we convene our latest voter vibe check, and we want to hear from you. Has the war in Gaza impacted the way you plan to vote in November or made your decision harder in any way? Give us a call at 844-745-TALK to share your concerns, your questions, and how you're planning to engage with democracy, whether that's through voting or something else entirely.

As your calls come in, I'm joined by one of the people who helped launch the "uncommitted" campaign in Michigan's primary. Rima Meroueh is the director of the National Network for Arab American Communities, which is a civil rights organization based in Michigan. Rima, thanks for joining us.

Rima Meroueh: Thank you.

Kai Wright: You were close to the original conversations that started the "uncommitted" campaign. What was the catalyst for this idea? I mean, obviously, it's about opposition to the administration's policy, but why this particular strategy for reacting to it?

Rima Meroueh: I do want to clarify, I was involved with this on my own behalf, but that's how important it is. It's something that none of us could set out. The catalyst for this was really not being heard, it's as simple as that. It was trying to-- for a lot of Arab Americans we see our feeds full of photos and videos of people getting killed every day, children getting killed, famine, and we're trying to send this message to people we elected and our voices are not being heard. This was really about sending a strong message that you can't do that. We voted and we need to be heard.

Kai Wright: The idea of doing it through voting in the primary for uncommitted, this has happened in other primaries, this happened with Barack Obama who didn't get on the ballot in Michigan, but still, it's a novel idea to many people. Why was that particular thing like, oh, that's the way we're going to do this?

Rima Meroueh: Well, I think in this case the primaries were coming up and this was the one opportunity we had. We don't want to wait until the election in November. We don't want to wait. We need this war to stop. We need the killing to stop. We need the famine to stop. It's not like we don't have the necessary tools to stop all of this. We have the leverage with Israel. We have what is necessary to stop this war and we as a country have not used that leverage.

The primaries were coming up and we thought what is the best way we can send this message? That's exactly what it's about. It's about sending a message. It's also, let's be honest, it's a way to show the parties, here's a group of voters that you all have set to the side for a long time and haven't actually addressed. This is a way to say, for the long term this is a population you can no longer ignore. This is a significant voting population.

Kai Wright: We can move the needle. Listeners, we've been hearing from some of you already who would otherwise likely support Joe Biden in this election but are now at a minimum torn because of Gaza. I'm going to share some of what we've heard from you throughout the hour, as we also take your calls live. I'm going to start with a sample of what we heard from people who have decided, no, I cannot vote for this guy anymore.

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Mordecai: Hello, my name is Mordecai. I'm calling from Raleigh, North Carolina.

Speaker 10: Montclair, New Jersey.

Mark: Mark, I'm from Parma, Ohio.

Megan: Megan, I live in Springfield, Illinois.

Mordecai: I just want to say that I'm a Democrat, and I will not be voting at all. Joe Biden is complicit in the genocide of the Palestinian people, and that's totally and absolutely unacceptable. I'm ashamed of him. I'm ashamed to be a Democrat at this time.

Speaker 10: Their inactions have been very disappointing. I'm thinking about voting third party or not vote at all. This is the first time that I would do that.

Mark: I cannot vote for either candidate this time because my options are war criminal or common criminal. I will write in ceasefire now or none of the above, depending on the status of the genocide in Gaza.

Megan: I never imagined that I would not be voting for a Democrat, especially in a year like this running against Trump. I fully support military action that would target Hamas, I think that's appropriate, given what they did on October 7th, but that's not what I have seen since October. I am really ashamed that we are allowing the mass starvation and deprivation of 2 million people. This feels personal for me because my husband is from Syria, and I am raising a child that is really not very different from the children who are living in Gaza.

To be living in a country that is tolerating, and actually supporting the mass brutalization of these people, and many of what's your children has opened up a wound that I am not sure when it will heal. I do not believe in Joe Biden anymore. I do not believe in the Democrats anymore. I'm not sure when the last time was that I really believed in America, but I think that I believed in the trajectory of America in some ways, and I no longer believe in that. I will be voting for Cornel West in the fall.

Kai Wright: That's a sampling of the definitely not voicemails that we've heard thus far. Again, we'll play some more later in the show from other perspectives. As we take your calls live 844-745-TALK. Rima your organization does a lot of polling in Michigan. What do you know about who made up those 100,000 uncommitted voters in Michigan? Was it a diverse coalition or was it mainly Arab American voters?

Rima Meroueh: There's a large number are Arab American voters, however, as we are our teams are on the ground, getting people to get out to register to vote to make sure people show up by November. We have seen and heard from so many people in the Arab American community and outside the Arab American community. People are saying they're voting with their conscience and their conscience is telling them they can't do that. They can't vote for Biden right now. That's what we're hearing from people on the ground.

It is large number of Arab Americans, but it's a diverse coalition of-- there are a lot of young people, African Americans, Arabs, Latinos, who are voting with their conscience as well and are saying they don't want to vote for Biden.

Kai Wright: Do you feel like you have seen political change that the movement was after since Michigan? Because there have been developments politically speaking, at least, thinking about the Biden administration, distancing itself from Netanyahu. For instance, last week, Senator Chuck Schumer, who's the majority leader, and is a staunch supporter of Israel gave a speech on the floor of Congress calling for new elections in Israel to replace Netanyahu, Biden has called it a "good speech". There's no policy change here, but these are very different postures from both of these men. Do you feel like that's in some sense a win for this campaign?

Rima Meroueh: I'm going to tell you what I hear on the ground and what we're hearing. In fact, listen to Michigan put something out about this. This is just words right now. I have to remind everyone listening, we have the tools to stop this war. These were simply words from Senator Schumer, from the president saying that it was a good speech. We can use our leverage to stop this. If we want to stop the famine, for example, there are literally hundreds of trucks sitting right outside the gates. Those can be let in. You don't need to drop them through the air. Talking about we should be criticizing Netanyahu is really an easy way out when people are saying, we need the killing to stop.

Kai Wright: Right. Again, for the campaign itself, I hear you saying that, okay, this is nowhere near enough. This is not actually what we're looking for. Do you think that that change at least was in response to what has been happening in the primaries?

Rima Meroueh: Oh, yes. Absolutely. It is in response to, but it does not go far enough and people are not fooled by it. That's what I'm trying to say, is absolutely I believe-- I have never heard Chuck Schumer speak this way. He is, like you said, a very staunch supporter of Israel, but the fact that he's speaking like this shows that they are hearing what is happening from people on the ground. They are hearing that people are not happy with the way they're handling this, but also it's a little bit insulting for people who are saying all of these things. I've heard that from a lot of people. This is insulting, because we have the tools to stop this, and they're still not using it.

The fact that they're responding to this is almost like saying, okay, we realize we might lose elections, so let's say something, but not actually change anything. That's how people are seeing it. They're seeing it as words and more words, because they're seeing that it may have an impact on the election.

Kai Wright: Wow. The fact that it's considered insulting, I think, is quite striking. We need to take a break. Rima Meroueh is the director of the National Network for Arab American Communities based in Michigan. She was part of the campaign that led more than 100,000 Michigan voters to select uncommitted in the Democratic primary. We want to hear from you. Has the war in Gaza impacted the way you plan to vote in November or made your decision harder in any way? Give us a call at 844-7450-TALK, share your concerns or questions and how you're planning to engage with democracy. Again, whether that's through voting or something else. How are you going to engage with democracy? Your calls are just ahead.

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Speaker 11: Hello, this is Scicchitani.

Dwight: Dwight from Brooklyn.

Venessa: Vanessa, I live just outside Dallas.

John: John from Skokie, Illinois.

Speaker 11: All while I've been trying to figure it out if at all I'm going to vote for Mr. Joe Biden. When Donald Trump comes in, he is going to ban all Muslims from entering the country, so I'm going vote for Joe Biden, because sitting home will be voting for Donald Trump who is going to be a dictator number one, a tested dictatorship. I know what dictatorship is, and I do not want America to be on a dictatorship.

Dwight: I have a lot of disagreements with Biden, but I will definitely vote for him because Donald Trump is such a horrendous alternative. The people who are focusing on single issue problems with respect to the Palestinian situation, I can understand their anger, but I would challenge them to say, you have to step back. We need someone like Biden, who, as imperfect as he is, is still a better choice than Donald Trump.

John: I don't like what's happening in Gaza, but if people abstain from voting for Biden, Donald Trump will let the Russians take Ukraine on top of what's happening in Gaza.

Venessa: Anything the Republicans do just doesn't align with me. I'm actually more or less than the Democrats actually are. I held my nose and voted for Biden. I definitely didn't want a Trump. I actually had moments where I was like, I'm not going to vote for him. As I see, the Republicans are probably no better. They're probably just more outspoken and more radical about their solutions. I'm voting for Biden again holding my nose, squeezing my eyes together and being pissed because I want the opportunity to not vote for anyone who I call Republican [unintelligible 00:14:54] in 2028. I feel like with the Republicans that's not going to be a reality.

Kai Wright: It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. This week we are convening our latest voter vibe check with people who likely would be voting for Joe Biden in this election, but are struggling with that choice because of the administration's policy on Gaza. You just heard some of the voicemails we've been receiving from listeners over the past few weeks. That one was a sample of people who do still worry that Donald Trump would be much worse. Earlier, I shared some voicemails from people who said, nonetheless, they just cannot support Biden anymore.

We want to hear from you, if Gaza has impacted the way you plan to vote. 844-745-TALK. That's 844-745-8255. With me is Rima Meroueh the director of the National Network for Arab American Communities based in Michigan, who was also on her own part of the campaign that led to more than 100,000 Michigan voters to select uncommitted in the Democratic primary. Rima, listening to those voicemails from our listeners who are concerned about what's happening in Gaza and the administration's stance on it, but say, well, Trump is the larger threat to them. How has that argument landed for voters you've been speaking with? Do they feel that same way, or how do they respond to that idea?

Rima Meroueh: Well, for most voters that we are talking to, they do feel that way. People have definitely felt that way. Though they're sending a message through the uncommitted campaign that they do not want Biden to be the Democratic candidate, they also feel very strongly that Trump is not a better option for them. The question that we pose to a lot of people is, or that I pose to a lot of people is, it's not voting for Biden as a vote for Trump. The question becomes, why is the Democratic party willing to throw this election knowing that this is going to happen?

Kai Wright: Yes. It's not about what the voters are doing, let's talk about what the candidate is doing. Go ahead.

Rima Meroueh: Isn't that what elections are all about, Kai?

Kai Wright: Theoretically. I thought they were all about campaign donations, but anyway, let's take some calls. Let's go to Iman in Brooklyn. Iman, welcome to the show.

Iman: Hi, there. My most important message for Biden and for all Democrats is that, I would and many other Arab Americans and Muslim Americans would never vote for a president who sacrificed the lives of African Americans or a president who sacrificed the lives of the LGBTQ community, or who sacrificed the lives of Latinos. We would never vote for a president who sacrificed any of these lives, so we will never vote for a president who sacrifices the lives of Palestinians.

Kai Wright: You are a never Biden voter. What does that mean for your engagement in democracy for both now and into the future?

Iman: It's a clear message. I mean, it's a message that we all rise together or we all fall together. We cannot as registered Democrats let one group get sacrificed. That's not how democracy works. We work together to rise up together, or we abandon a group and we all fall together, and all Democrats need to know that.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that, Iman. Let's go to Esther in Evanston, Illinois. Esther, welcome to the show.

Esther: Hi, can you hear me?

Kai Wright: Yes. Yes, we can. The president's policy in Gaza has affected you in one way or the other, how's it impacting your vote?

Esther: Well, yes. Well, let me just tell you about my biases. My biases is that I'm a Holocaust survivor's child who was born in Germany in Stuttgart one year after VE Day. That, and I'm very connected to Israel in that way and horrified by what they're doing, but where are all the people saying Hamas has sacrificed the Palestinian. Hamas started this. Why don't they quit? Why don't they leave? Why don't they say, okay, we give up. We don't want this war anymore. We give up. Why doesn't anybody suggest that?

Kai Wright: Esther, on the question of the election here--

Esther: On the question of election, I think that Biden is doing what he needs to do to maintain any power over the decision in Israel. No matter what you say and how horrified we are, he can't go in with the military and stop Israel. He can't do that. All he can do is lean on Israel and push and push and push until he gets them to change their mind, because the Israelis hate this as much-- as we do.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that, Esther. That's a Biden vote. Let's go to Jean in Chicago. Jean, welcome to the show.

Jean: Oh, thank you. Well, now my problem is that I feel rather trapped by the election because Trump would be so much worse than Biden, that I feel in a sense blackmailed or forced to vote for Biden. At the same time, if I do vote for Biden, which I probably will, I'll feel cheap, and I feel as though I've morally debased myself voting for a president who, in my opinion, has lost all moral authority and is a moral failure. He was a moral failure dealing with Afghanistan, and now he's a moral failure dealing with this question that is supposed to be so compassionate.

Kai Wright: Jean, can I ask you, you say you feel blackmailed into this vote? That kind of emotion, what does that mean for you in terms of your relationship to democracy, not just in like the question of who you're going to vote for this year, but in general, does that change anything for you? Are you just like, this is just about this election?

Jean: Well, I'm not going to say that we'll never have good candidates in America again. At the same time, for a long time, I believed that it was a bad mistake that we don't have a parliamentary system. I think having a president that you have to vote for instead of a party causes no end of trouble. I'm not sure if I answered your question.

Kai Wright: You did.

Jean: I wouldn't mind voting for the Democratic Party if we had a parliamentary system and if Biden had a real possibility of having a loss of confidence vote.

Kai Wright: Thank you for that, Jean. Rima, one thing that is clear from Jean's comments, and I think from a lot of voicemails we had, there are people who feel clear and strong about what they need to do. For a lot of people, the answers are not totally clear for what they need to do in this election. I gather that that's even true within your own family that you and your husband both voted uncommitted but have strong disagreements about what to do in November. What have those conversations been like between the two of you, not just to pry to your private life, but because I think it might be helpful for people to hear how you guys are wrestling with it?

Rima Meroueh: Yes, Kai, I do want to say first, before I tell you about that, I want to just respond to a lot of your callers, a few of your callers. The option right now is between the rhetoric that a lot of Arab Americans have heard and we've heard this, as we've been out in the community, is you're asking us to vote for either a guy who has told us that our family members will not be allowed in, which is Trump, through the Muslim ban, or the other one who has allowed and funded where 30, 40, 50, 60 members of my family have been killed in Palestine for Palestinians, right? Those are not options that are real options.

When my husband and I have this conversation, I do feel very strongly that there will be a president that is destroying the democracy in this country and that we have lost so many democratic processes already, and I've seen that through my work. The other option is someone who is supporting a genocide. Neither is a good option. I do feel strongly that we have to show up to vote because our vote is how we send that message. My husband feels very strongly, he is an immigrant, and he feels very strongly, why do we have this system? Why are only two options? Why are these two the only people we can vote for? Why can't we figure out some other way? Why is there only a two-party system? Those are the conversations we have.

Kai Wright: I wonder what you think about, I have a similar question to your husband's of why this framework of either we have to as voters value human life or value protecting all these other rights that might be threatened by a Trump administration? Well, I guess we don't have to say might be, that Trump as a candidate has stated that he intends to threaten. What is the work to say, let's do both? How do we get out of that binary?

Rima Meroueh: Well, that's my husband's question, is if we continue-- What he told me once, and I think that was a wake-up call for me, is, every election you tell me this one is critical. This one is critical to the democracy. We have to vote, we have to vote. He's like, at what point do we say, enough is enough? Democracy is getting torn apart anyway. At what point do you say, I need to vote with my conscience and I cannot support someone who is supporting the genocide.

Kai Wright: Along those lines, we received a text message. Someone or a listener writes, unfortunately, even if the situation has turned around before November, I will not vote for Joe Biden because now it just seems like a last-ditch attempt to save his presidency. When a president doesn't hear the taxpayers calling for ceasefire and continues to act without any kind of empathy towards the situation, it is unforgivable. No, he's not going to get my vote, but when he goes and stands before God, that is when he will really take responsibility for his actions and the actions he has brought upon our country and the citizens of Palestine. We are talking about something so much deeper to people than many policy debates that we're often asked to weigh in on as voters. That's what makes this seem such a category apart to me, I guess, in terms of its long-term impact.

Rima Meroueh: That is exactly what we are hearing from people, unfortunately, that no matter what happens at this point, over 30,000 people have been killed. The president now, even if he came out for a ceasefire, is sending a message that these lives were not important, that the 30,000 who died were not important. What I will say is, it is extremely important for us to be a part of this voting process. It doesn't matter which way people vote, the country, our country, this country, the democracy is on trial right now. We do need to show up and not just show up to vote for this election, but to vote for every election, not just the presidential elections, and to be a part of this process.

I feel very strongly that one thing I have learned through my work is that a democracy without the participation of its people, and that means calling your elected officials every day, not just every four years, a democracy without the participation of people is simply a dictatorship in disguise.

Kai Wright: Let's go to Mohammed in Richardson, Texas. Mohammed, welcome to the show.

Mohammed: Thank you for taking my call. I am listening to the callers, and I am saying my feelings are exactly the same. What they're saying, my feeling is the democracy and humanity, they are bleeding and there is nobody there.

Kai Wright: They're bleeding and there is nobody there. Let's go, thank you for that, Mohammed. We'll come back to some calls here in a moment. One of the things that we have heard from organizers in Arab American civil rights organizations and in the community, is that there's a theory that working to build political power in a Trump administration environment actually would be more advantageous because if the Democratic leaders would have responded differently, if this was happening under Trump, that maybe they would have more quickly joined the calls for a ceasefire, for instance, if Trump was leading the charge of Middle East. What do you think about that idea? Is that an argument that you're hearing circulating from people over the last few months or is that a fringe idea?

Rima Meroueh: I have not heard that very much, which tells me it might be a fringe idea. However, I will say, I'm not sure that that's necessarily the case because the pro-Israeli lobbyists are very strong. It doesn't matter whether elected officials are Democrats or Republicans, if you're pro-Israeli, you're getting that money. If you're, I should say, pro-Israel, you're getting that money. I'm not sure that the response would have been very different under Trump.

Kai Wright: Under Trump, one way or the other. Someone on Instagram wrote us, which is another way to talk to our show, by the way, we're on Instagram @noteswithkai, left a comment saying, this war would never have happened if the world demanded hostages rather than a call for a futile ceasefire. Very last dim and putting my vote in for Nikki Haley. One, just that idea, and we're headed towards a break here, but that idea that, well, if we had just gone to the hostages first, then we wouldn't have been here. Then two, hearing from people who were Democrats and that are now saying, I would vote Republican. Maybe we take the first one and then we'll go to a break.

Rima Meroueh: Yes, Kai, I have to say, I think that that call for hostages is a great idea, especially the thousands of Palestinians that are currently being held hostage in the Israeli government, how do we call for them to be released, I think we would be in a different place, as well as the Israeli hostages.

Kai Wright: Why do you think that?

Rima Meroueh: Because I think we're ignoring the symptoms that got the world to the situation. This conflict did not begin on October 7th, as horrific as that day was, it didn't begin there. Talking about the hostages of October 7th, it should be the first call, right? Let's make sure those hostages are released, but as importantly is the thousands of hostages that are held by Israel and still being held and continue to be held.

Kai Wright: You're listening to Notes from America, and we're convening our latest in a series of voter vibe checks that we'll be doing throughout the year. This week we're hearing from people who would likely be supporting Joe Biden in this election, but are struggling with that choice because of the administration's policy in Gaza. You can chime in as well. Give us a call or text us at 844-745-TALK. That's 844-745-8255. More of your calls after a break. Stay with us.

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Katerina Barton: Hey, it's Katerina Barton from the show team at Notes from America with Kai Wright. Something happens to me when I listen to this show. No matter the topic or the guest, I can always think of someone I want to tell about what I just heard and I do. If you're thinking about who in your life would enjoy this episode or another episode you've heard, please share it with them now. The folks in your life trust your good taste, and we would appreciate you spreading the word. If you really want to go above and beyond, please leave us a review.

It helps more people, the ones you know and the ones you don't find the show. I'll let you get back to listening now. Thanks.

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Kai Wright: It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. I'm talking with Rima Meroueh, the director of the National Network for Arab American Communities based in Michigan. She was part on her own time of the campaign that led more than 100,000 Michigan voters to select uncommitted in the Democratic primary. This is our latest in a series of vibe checks with would-be voters, which we're going to be doing all year. This week we are hearing from people who would likely have been Biden supporters in this election, but are now struggling with that choice because of the administration's policy in Gaza.

Let me read a couple of text messages we've gotten. One says, uncommitted delegates at the Democratic Convention is not the same thing as Democratic voters staying home in November. The former is a warning and possible option. The second sends Trump to simply hand Gaza over to Netanyahu. An important distinction that a text listener wants to make. Another says, not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump. Because of Gaza I also want to vote uncommitted in the primary. However, I will vote for Biden in the general election.

Why does this movement not see that Trump will do far worse to the Palestinian people? Trump will destroy the whole planet and our country. We cannot let him win. Now, I read that in part because, Rima, the reference to this movement, do you feel like people have an understanding of what the movement is trying to achieve? This distinction between what you're doing in the primary and the idea of what has to happen in November?

Rima Meroueh: For someone who would say that, I don't think they understand what the movement is trying to do. The movement is trying to send a message to the Democratic party that this is not okay. That they have to hear these voices, that there are hundreds of thousands of people who are sending them a message that this cannot be the only option, and that you cannot hold Trump as a reason to vote for Biden. That's not how elections work. That's not how real elections work. The movement is about the long-term game.

It's about sending a message. It's about stopping the killing in Gaza. It's about having Arab American voices heard, and being able to show that we are able to make an impact on elections. That's what it's about. That is not the same thing as voting for Trump. If we send a message through our vote, especially through the primary votes that the candidate does not represent us, that is not a message that we're sending about the November election. It's simply a message for this primary.

Kai Wright: Let's go to Gary in Santa Monica. Gary, welcome to the show.

Gary: Hi. Thank you. I've been listening to a lot of the comments, and I am sympathetic and appreciative. I am a first generation American. My mother was born in Israel, goes back generations. It's such a difficult time and a difficult place. I, of course, was horrified by what happened like everyone on October 7th and am equally horrified by what is going on in Gaza. That is not swaying me from voting for Biden, because as your previous person, I don't know if she was a caller was saying or not, Trump is much more dangerous.

Biden right now thank God has a very strange relationship with Netanyahu. Obama had it as well. Trump, I was in Israel last year in December. There is a little town named after him in the Golan area. My relatives were like, do you want to go? It's like, no. The the point being, I understand the anger and I sympathize with all of it. Again, I'm supporter of a two-state solution. Absolutely, this cannot continue with Palestinians. When my mother was born, that country was Palestine and my family was born in Palestine.

My father immigrated from Germany during the war to Palestine. Trump is a pal of Netanyahu. My relatives in Israel participate in demonstra-- I'm sorry.

Kai Wright: I'm going to stop you there just for time, but I think we get the notion here that you're adding to us, and I want to say that a number of callers and texters are saying, hey, I got all kinds of third party options that I want to turn to. Marianne Williamson, Jill Stein, we heard somebody else say Cornell West. That is part of the conversation as well, but the reality is that we have these two leading candidates that are going to be hard to break through. Go ahead, Rima.

Rima Meroueh: Yes, Kai, I just want to remind all the callers that the uncommitted is for the primaries. We're not talking about elections yet. We're sending a message through this. I've heard that from even on our work where we engage Americans to get out and vote. This is what we are hearing from them is, I want to vote. I'm uncommitted because I want to send a message to the party that I have been a part of.

Kai Wright: Your organization has a campaign called Why Do We Vote, where you've been asking people what is driving them to the polls? What were you hearing before October 7th?

Rima Meroueh: It's called the Why I Vote campaign. Before October 7th-- they're really beautiful, we will have them on a website to show them, but we hear from people that I want to vote because I want to access to healthcare. I want to vote because I want my children to have better education. I want to vote because, oh, I want better economic opportunities. Those were the things that people would talk about a lot. After October 7th, I would say a few days after where we started seeing this mass killing, but not only that, we started seeing Arab Americans sending message to their elected officials and elected officials just completely ignoring those voices.

The Why I Vote turned into, because I want my voice heard. I want to be able to affect change in this country. We have a significant number of people who are talking about not feeling heard and wanting to feel heard, and wanting to be able to stop this killing and stop seeing these images of children being killed.

Kai Wright: As we start to wrap up here, what happens for you, I guess, if the Biden administration does not move further than it has? Because I think that's part of why people are jumping ahead to thinking about November is like, okay, well what happens if there's no change. What am I going to be asked to do come November? For you, say, there's no change at all, what does that mean for you?

Rima Meroueh: Kai, there's two options here. As far as the uncommitted campaign, I can't really speak for the uncommitted campaign yet, but I can tell you for what I am as part of the network what we are talking to people about is, we need Arab Americans involved in the Democratic process. We need people involved. We need people talking to their elected officials and reminding them that we voted for them, and that we have a voice in all of this. That's what we will continue to do.

That is the big thing that we are going to continue to do. More than ever, if Biden does not win, we will be continuously reminding people that it is even more important that they be a part of that democratic process of contacting their elected officials so that they're not making those decisions on their own.

Kai Wright: As someone who is very clearly invested in we got to participate in electoral politics, do you fear that the out outcome of this could be a massive divestment from electoral politics for Arab American communities in particular after all of the work that's been going in for years? As you've said and others, politically this did not start with October 7th in the Arab American community either, but do you fear a long term negative effect on participation.

Rima Meroueh: You know, Kai, if you had asked me that question a week after October 7th I would've said yes, because people were feeling really desperate. We heard a lot of I don't want to vote. This is terrible. I can't stop this, anyways. What's the point? They're not listening to us. Something flipped a couple of weeks in, and we are hearing people more than ever saying, you know what? We are here as Americans, and we are sending a message and we're being ignored, and we need to be more a part of this process.

If anything, I have actually never seen the Arab American community and Muslim communities so organized and coming together on such large levels. I would say, no, I'm not worried about it. I'm actually seeing, we're seeing a lot of young people, so many young people saying, you know what? I need to be a part of this.

Kai Wright: Thank you so much, Rima. Rima Meroueh is the director of the National Network for Arab American Communities based in Michigan.

[music]

Kai Wright: Thanks to everyone who called in to add their voice to this conversation. With these voter vibe checks, we're trying to open space for discussions with particular groups of people. Before we go, I want to tell you about the next one we're going to do on Sunday, April 7th. It's in partnership with our friends at the podcast Today, Explained, which is Co-hosted by journalist Noel King. Noel and I have been reading a lot and talking a lot about what Black voters are thinking in 2024.

Now, in a recent New York Times and Siena College poll, 23% of Black voters said they would vote for Donald Trump if the election were held today. It's very likely these voters did not vote for Donald Trump in 2016. Only about 8% of Black voters said they supported him back then. What could have caused that number to nearly triple these eight years later? Noel King had a chance to think out loud about it, with someone who is very influential in the Black community.

At a taping of Today, Explained at the South by Southwest Festival in Austin, she invited Charlamagne Tha God, co-host of The Breakfast Club, to talk about his audience and his influence. Charlemagne invited his longtime friend Angela Rye to be a part of that conversation. I want to share a little bit of it with you and then I'll tell you what we're going to do here together on April 7th. Here's Noel with Charlamagne Tha God and Angela Rye.

Noel King: You get questions about this I think in part again as a radio person myself because you take calls on your show, which means you have this intimate connection with people that--

Charlamagne Tha God: It's the best.

Noel King: It's so cool, but it means that people ask you to be a representative of the people that you're hearing from who call in. I'm asking you now to do the same thing. I want to know what you are hearing from people that is undeniable this year about this election.

Charlamagne Tha God: The biggest thing is my guy Tim Ryan, he talks about the exhausted majority. He says he feels like most people in this country they're not leaning to the left and not leaning to the right. They're just tired. I think it's up to both candidates right now, but especially Democrats, how are you going to energize those people who don't want to get up off the couch in November? That's the biggest thing I'm hearing from people. They're just tired. They're just fed up with the political process all across the board.

Noel King: What do you think Biden has gotten done? What do you hear Biden has gotten done?

Charlamagne Tha God: Student loan forgiveness is a big one. Honestly, that's the biggest thing I've heard people from our community talking about because people like to see tangible things. They like to see things that absolutely they can touch and they can feel. When people wonder why folks keep bringing up these stimulus checks, it's because it's something that they could actually touch and they could feel and they could see. I think it's the same thing with the student loan debt forgiveness, but outside of that, I personally haven't heard much.

Noel King: When you say tangible things, I hear the economy.

Charlamagne Tha God: That's it. That's literally all it's ever about. When they ask people, well, what do Black people want? We want this same thing everybody else wants in this country. Upward mobility, money. People like cash. Cash rules everything around me. That's been the--

Noel King: CREAM, the money.

Charlamagne Tha God: That's right. It's been like that since the beginning of time.

Angela Rye: This is where we disagree too, though.

Charlamagne Tha God: It is true. There's nothing we can talk about on this stage that money doesn't revolve around.

Angela Rye: I'm not saying not that. I'm just saying, it's not just money that we need. We need safety. We need the same folks who are there to protect and serve other communities, to protect and serve us, not shoot to kill. I want a Department of Justice that serves us. I want some folks that are really aggressive on the voting rights cases. This is a big deal that he's not going to be able to get to the finish line in November if they don't really start taking these voting rights issues really seriously.

Charlamagne Tha God: The voter suppression is going to be so real come November. Democrats' only defense against voter suppression historically has been, we got to have the largest voter turnout in the history of America this election. I don't know if you get that in 2024. If you don't get a large voter turnout, how are you going to stop the voter suppression?

Noel King: Truthfully, I think one of the criticisms is even saying something like that could lead to people sitting home and staying on the couch. You're not advocating anyone to sit home and stay on the couch. Angela is nodding her head, so I didn't make this up. You have so much influence. You say it and there's a genuine fear that that might make it real.

Charlamagne Tha God: I disagree.

Noel King: What are you basing your disagreement on?

Charlamagne Tha God: I think that if these elected officials were doing what they were supposed to be doing for the people, it wouldn't matter what somebody like me says. If literally me just having these conversations-- because the only question I've ever asked that is considered critical is, are they still a winnable ticket come November? I think that's a very valid question to ask if we have a threat to democracy on the other side. What's wrong with asking that question? Are they still a winnable ticket?

When you look at the polls, when you look at the approval rating, what's wrong with asking that question? When David Axelrod says that, nobody says anything.

Noel King: I was just going to say that.

Charlamagne Tha God: When, what's the guy who wrote the article for The New York Times?

Noel King: Ezra Klein.

Charlamagne Tha God: When Ezra Klein writes a article like that nobody says anything, but when the Black guy from the hip-hop station in the hoodie says something, then everybody has a problem with it. Any power that I have is derived from the people. I'm literally only asking the questions that I hear everyday working-class people ask of me when they call into the radio station in the morning, and when I'm walking the streets in New York, or when I'm home in South Carolina. These are the things that I'm hearing people say.

I'll give you an example. I remember back in January when I was having a conversation with Fox News, and the guy said to me, hey, do you think the border is going to be an issue come November? I said, hell yes. The reason I said, hell yes, is because for the first time, I'm having people that I talk to on a regular basis come to me and they're having these conversations. You have people in Chicago, you have people in New York complaining about the resources that they feel the migrants were getting that people in the community that have been there forever aren't receiving.

You literally had MSNBC run a headline that says, Charlamagne Tha God is pushing MAGA messaging. Now, two months later, that's all everybody's talking about is the border. Literally my answer came from talking to people, regular everyday people. Not listening to no politics or what a campaign strategist said, this came from the people. How is it MAGA messaging if it's coming from the people?

Noel King: If people think Donald Trump is stronger on the border. If people remember getting stimulus checks for Donald Trump. If people think Donald Trump and the Republicans take crime more seriously than Democrats, that 23%, that doesn't seem unrealistic to me. Some of the things you're saying.

Charlamagne Tha God: We got to stop saying that in regards to Black voters though. When you look at Joe Biden's approval ratings, he's getting his ass kicked everywhere. It's not just Black people.

Noel King: It's fair.

Charlamagne Tha God: I think that you know in order to really get that campaign on the right track, they got to start looking at the totality of what's happening with that campaign and how different groups of people feel about him.

Noel King: In 2020, you endorsed Joe Biden. This year you have not made an endorsement. You hear how Angela speaks? You hear what your friend, your very well-informed friend says is at stake. Are you going to endorse anyone this year?

Charlamagne Tha God: No. I'm endorsing a democracy though. I think that you should go out there and you should vote to keep this democracy alive.

Kai Wright: That was Noel King co-host of Today, Explained in conversation with hip-hop radio host and author Charlamagne Tha God and political commentator Angela Rye at South by Southwest. In a few weeks, Noel and I are going to pick up this same conversation right here on Notes from America. Is this really a thing? Are there a meaningful number of Black voters who have decided Donald Trump is the guy who best represents them and their interests? If so, why? What's going on? You tell us.

Call or text us at 844-745-TALK. That's 844-745-8255. If you are Black and have decided to vote for Donald Trump or are considering casting a ballot for the former president, or even if this is just a debate you're having with your friends and family. On Sunday, April 7th, join us live at 6:00 PM Eastern on this station as Noel King and I listen to what you had to say, and thanks.

Notes from America is a production of WNYC Studios. This episode was produced by Suzanne Gaber. Our theme music and sound design is by Jared Paul. Matthew Miranda was at the board for the live show. Our team also includes Katerina Barton, Regina de Heer, Felice León, Fiona Petro, and Lindsay Foster Thomas. Thanks to Today, Explained, and Beenish Ahmed for additional reporting help.

Hey, are you on Instagram? No way, because we are too. Check out our show highlights, videos from me, and much more on Instagram @noteswithkai. I'm Kai Wright. Thanks for spending time.

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