David Remnick: Well, it's been a big week for Donald Trump. After winning the Iowa caucuses last week by a record-breaking margin, he went to court. Now, there are four criminal cases against him, but this court appearance was in another case altogether, the civil trial brought by E. Jean Carroll. Carroll, who was a writer, accused Trump of sexually abusing her in the 1990s, and he was already found liable by a jury last year. He's also liable for defamation in the relentless smear campaign he's been waging against her.
Speaker 2: There was a previous trial on a different defamatory statement, but it resolved with a jury some of the issues that would've otherwise been at issue here like whether there was a sexual assaulter, whether Trump actually assaulted her, whether he defamed her when he denied doing so. Those issues are now off the table. Those are resolved. The only thing at issue here is the damages for this second defamatory statement.
David Remnick: Although for all intents and purposes, Trump has already lost this case. He defamed E. Jean Carroll, and the judge says that he can't try to re-litigate that. The abuse has not stopped, not by any stretch of the imagination. During the proceedings, Trump's account on Truth Social posted dozens of exactly the kind of statements at issue in the trial itself. Carroll's attorney asked jurors to consider the ongoing attacks against her as they determine the award for damages. I spoke back in May with E. Jean Carroll, along with one of her attorneys, Roberta Kaplan.
On May 9th, Donald Trump was found liable for sexual abuse, battery, and defamation in your suit against him. Not a day later, in Trump's inimitable fashion, he called you a whack job, and he made fun of you about what had happened to you during a CNN Town Hall broadcast around the world. It's easy to make an assumption that in the #MeToo era that people take sexual assault more seriously, and yet, you heard this laughter in the crowd. Were you surprised by the reaction?
Jean Carroll: I was stunned by the reaction because it was not a slap against me. It was a slap against almost every single woman who was hearing him. Every woman who's just been merely pinched or grabbed and then the guy laughs and denies it, every woman hearing him saying those terrible things about me, I'm sure they felt as they were hurt like I was.
David Remnick: Robbie Kaplan, you have filed an amendment to a separate defamation lawsuit that's still pending. There are some people that ask why pursue legal action. Do you think that it's ever going to change Donald Trump? How will this move the needle either societally or where it comes to Donald Trump, who's now the front-runner in the presidential race on the Republican side for 2024?
Roberta Kaplan: I'm no political expert, so I can't speak to the politics of it. I can say things that I think we proved by a preponderance but I think even by a higher standard in this trial. One is that Trump is a liar. He lied about E. Jean. He's done it now several times. He continues to do it, and he has a pattern in which he lies, the way in which he lies, which is he gets more vicious and more resolute and nastier over time. We saw that in terms of the three defamations now, or the three different times he's defamed E. Jean.
I'm sure they'll continue before we get to a jury again. The jury saw that. They saw the videotape of his deposition where he was clearly lying, and they concluded that he was a liar. One of the things I said in my closing argument is in order for Trump to win here, you have to believe that he's the only one telling the truth and that the 11 witnesses that E. Jean put on, they are all lying. Well, we know which way the jury came out. They concluded that E. Jean and the 10 other witnesses were telling the truth and that Trump was the liar.
David Remnick: E. Jean, I have to ask you, one of the more famous quotations by Donald Trump in the beginning of his presidential campaign was that even if he shot somebody on Fifth Avenue, he could get away with it. Maybe I'm paraphrasing it, but that's more or less the quote. Do you think that era has ended with this decision in court?
Jean Carroll: I think we're ending it. Now, it's just not Robbie Kaplan and me and the nine jury. I think people are starting to recognize that when Donald Trump defames someone or when Donald Trump lies, people tend to believe it and they act on it. Hence, they attacked the Capitol when he said he won the election. They attacked me because he said I'm a liar and that-- horrible things.
Robbie Kaplan has figured out the one way to stop him is to make him pay for lying. If he were made to pay for shooting somebody on Fifth Avenue, I don't think he would've shot him. Money is precious to him, and Robbie is going to go get some of his money for his lying.
David Remnick: Do you think, Robbie, that Donald Trump, considering his history, will follow the judge's instructions and amp down the rhetoric directed at E. Jean? Because it doesn't seem so.
Roberta Kaplan: No, not in the near term. I don't think he will. I don't think he can help himself, honestly. I don't think he has enough development in the frontal lobe of his brain to do that. On the other hand, the one thing as E. Jean said, he understands his money, and at some point, he'll understand that every time he does it, it's going to cost him a few million dollars. That may make a difference.
David Remnick: Although a few million dollars is a trivial sum for him.
Roberta Kaplan: That's what he says. We'll see. I'm not sure that he's got millions of dollars liquid lying around to pay the judgment here.
David Remnick: While Donald Trump continues to trash-talk you in the ugliest way imaginable, he's been fundraising off of the judgment in this lawsuit. What does that say about the country you live in?
Jean Carroll: I love this country. I loved how the federal court worked. I loved how the jury worked. I love it. I hate to be all positive about this, but I think we've made a difference. I really do. I really feel it, and I don't care what a blowhard he is and says all those terrible things. I think we're convincing people. I really do, David. I really do.
David Remnick: Although his poll numbers continue to thrive.
- Jean Carroll: There's a certain segment of the society that-- Listen, a lot of people don't like women. There's a lot of women haters in this country. I hate to go this route, but you're-- If there's any little thing that Robbie and I, the nine members of the jury, can do defending our truth and letting people know that, yes, Donald Trump is a liar and he dragged me through the mud and he ground my face into the dirt, and yes, it happened, I think we can turn just enough women and men at the polls to make sure he doesn't become the next president.
David Remnick: E. Jean, I have to ask, no matter how the rest of this case goes, whether there are damages recovered or not, I want to ask about your life now. How has your life changed after the verdict? How do you go on? What's it going to be like?
Jean Carroll: One thing has changed. I am going to dedicate myself to somehow figuring out a way for the women who don't have my platform to hold men accountable. Robbie and I are going to put our heads together. We both are getting these letters. We've said we're going to figure out a way. David, that's how my life is going to change. I'm a crone. I'm an elderly woman, but I think we've got a few good years left to figure out a way to end the culture of sexual violence. That's what I want to do.
David Remnick: E. Jean Carroll, along with her attorney, Roberta Kaplan. We spoke in May of last year. Donald Trump appeared in court last week where a New York jury is currently weighing how much to award her in damages. A longer version of our conversation with more background on the overlapping legal cases is now at newyorkerradio.org.
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