[music]

Kai Wright: It's Notes from America, I'm Kai Wright, and I am joined by our show's former intern, Vanessa Handy. Hey, Vanessa.

Vanessa Handy: Hey, Kai.

Kai Wright: You are here to make fun of your elders, no?

Vanessa Handy: A little bit. Something like that. [laughs] A few months ago, I was at my mom's house in my childhood home, sitting on her bed while I watched her braid my aunt's hair. To pass the time, we were marathoning reruns of Good Times.

Kai Wright: Good Times, as in JJ and, little Janet Jackson and all of that.

Vanessa Handy: Yes. Honestly, between the hair braiding and the reruns, I can't think of a more Black-centric activity.

Kai Wright: Truly.

Vanessa Handy: We sat there laughing at JJ's questionable choices in sleepwear. It shocked me that after every episode, even after all of these years, they barely knew the words to the theme song. Every time a new episode would start, they were silent until this one line kicked in. It's the part that goes [sings] keeping your head above water.

[MUSIC-Good Times by Dave Grusin and Andrew Bergman]

Keeping your head above water.

Kai Wright and Vanessa Handy: [sings] Making a wave when you can. Temporary layoffs. Good Times.

[MUSIC-Good Times by Dave Grusin and Andrew Bergman]

Good Times.

Vanessa Handy: Exactly. I always remember my mom cuts in right at the part where they go, [sings] Scratchin' and Survivin'.

Kai Wright: They didn't know the rest.

Vanessa Handy: No, not at all. Just that part. When it kicked in, they would be singing at the top of their lungs, dancing and clapping and laughing at me because I was seriously cringing at them.

Kai Wright: Because old people's brains don't work like yours. I'm sorry, Vanessa. Why is this on your mind right now?

Vanessa Handy: Honestly, Kai, it was just such a pure and silly moment, but it took me back to my childhood. I grew up in a house of six, and my parents worked full-time while my siblings and I were in school. The days were chaotic, to say the least. When we got to kick back on the weekend and watch TV together, it was a rare moment of serene family time.

Kai Wright: Sweet.

Vanessa Handy: We'd be watching these comedies like Good Times, Family Matters, and The Cosby Show.

Kai Wright: Is that because your family just likes comedy?

Vanessa Handy: Maybe, but honestly, Kai, comedies were the only kinds of shows where we could watch Black families like us experiencing joy and relishing each other.

Kai Wright: That is really true. I know exactly what you mean. It was the same thing. I was a kid when these shows came out, and it was the same thing for my family.

Vanessa Handy: I'm still young, but I miss those days. Now there's been an evolution of Black comedy. It's not just family sitcoms anymore. It shows that center Black women and honestly, I wouldn't watch some of them with my mom.

[laughter]

There's shows like The Black Lady Sketch Show and Abbott Elementary that are leading the genre. I really want to understand this moment from the people that are shaping it, Black women. I sat down with Sam Jay. She's a three-time Emmy-nominated comedian, former SNL writer, and she had her own HBO late-night show. I asked her what this moment means for her.

Sam Jay: There's something changing in America. There's something changing with the pulse of the culture and people and what people want to see. I think people's minds are just more open to seeing diversity. It's not like, "Oh, this is crazy." I'm seeing a family of Black people in a Cheerios commercial. It's very normal. Art changes and culture changes with art it's just in this reciprocal relationship. I think sometimes we get obsessed with ourselves and we like to believe we're the first ones doing something.

But I feel like when Fred Sanford and The Good Times and all those shows that were full of what's happening because I know I grew up in a very Black-centric household, and those were the things that we watched. My mother made me very aware of Black actresses and Black actors and Black artists and took me to see Alvin Ailey. I think it's always been a culture of knowing that we have to look for each other and find each other, for sure. Got to get the old people their props.

Vanessa Handy: You mentioned growing up you were watching these Black family shows. Did that have any influence on you wanting to get into comedy? Why do you do this in the first place?

Sam Jay: I wouldn't even say specifically the Black shows. I just really loved TV and I really loved sitcoms and I really loved comedians. Those were things I've always really been into since I was a kid. I was very aware of who the comedians were and when they were in a show, I knew they were coming from stand-up. I was staying up late to watch Comic View and Def Jam and HBO specials and all that kind of stuff. It was a natural thing for me. It was just a natural inclination that I had.

Vanessa Handy: When it comes to your career in comedy, when did you first start performing?

Sam Jay: At 29, I was back in Boston and I just started at open mics.

Vanessa Handy: What were you doing up until that point throughout your 20s?

Sam Jay: A bunch of bullshit, working at odd jobs and retail spaces and office spaces and doing things I hated and things that felt very unfulfilling. Just floating through life trying to figure out how I was going to feel good about this experience.

Vanessa Handy: Was there a turning point?

Sam Jay: I don't know if it was like a turning point. I just know I was feeling like this can't be the whole jam. If this is it, I don't even know if I want to play anymore because I just wasn't being stimulated and I didn't feel like I was doing anything that really mattered. It's kind of this feeling of you're just surviving. I was just tired of feeling that way. I started to think about when I felt happy and when I felt alive and connected and useful. I was like, "Oh, it's usually when I'm making people laugh or I'm at a bar and I've suddenly got a bunch of strangers around me and I'm making some point but also being funny."

I just was like, "All right, well maybe go toward that." I didn't know where it was going to take me but I was like, maybe that's the beginning of whatever is for you type of thing.

Vanessa Handy: You said you wanted something that made you feel connected and useful. Do you mean more to a community or just to yourself?

Sam Jay: To this experience that is living.

Vanessa Handy: Say more.

Sam Jay: I wasn't like, oh, I need to be more connected to the Black community. I wasn't like I need to be more connected to women. I just needed to feel alive and like I was a part of this thing we're trying to do in some kind of way. It really was just feeling connected to living because I was in a very disassociated place with it.

Vanessa Handy: You talked about some of the stepping stones on the way to, I guess, having comedy as your career. What were some of those stepping stones for you after you started doing stand-up again?

Sam Jay: So many little moments. I think just simple stuff like getting past at local clubs which means like, oh, now you can get booked there and get paid even if it's like $25 a show. That was a big deal. It's like, "Oh, I'm getting paid to do stand-up. I'm not stuck in open mics anymore. I have real clubs I can go to." That was dope and huge. Then starting to be asked to go out of town was a big deal. It's like, "Oh, I get to go to Connecticut, go to Vermont, or whatever." That was a thing because all of it it's just you're fueling the dream and you're showing yourself what you're willing to do for it and how committed you are to it.

Just getting into comedy festivals, I was like, "Oh, I got accepted into a festival." It all adds up. It all feeds the dragon.

Vanessa Handy: Right.

[music]

Kai Wright: This is Notes from America, more of comedian Sam Jay's conversation with Vanessa Handy after a break.

[music]

It's Notes from America, and here's more of comedian and actor Sam Jay in conversation with our own Vanessa Handy.

Vanessa Handy: I noticed that obviously, you talk about your lived experience. A lot of your humor is about being a Black lesbian, but I'm wondering how much of it is a conscious choice to bring your identity to comedy.

Sam Jay: I never really thought about it like I'm being a Black lesbian, but I was very aware that by being myself, I was bringing a perspective that wasn't necessarily there. I don't know what else to talk about to be honest. It just that is what's happening, and those were always the comics I liked that talk lived experience to make their micro thing macro, like how you take this and then apply it to everybody else and how they can relate to it. Also how my personal relationship may be a reflection of larger relationships and stuff like that. I married my wife, she was 37. I was 35.

We got 35 baggage, baggage, and we moved fast. I'm not going to lie. We were lesbians, we did it. [laughter] We got married super fast. We met in February, we got married in June. Lesbian style. Don't judge me, I live my life how I want.

[laughter]

[applause]

It's hard though. It's hard merging lives. We got other factors, you know what I mean? We're ladies, our periods have synced up. It's crazy. No one's discussing that. The lesbian community is not message-boarding about this shit. [laughter] We should be, it's a problem. The period sync-up is huge. It's a huge issue, man. It's hard. We're fighting. I don't even know why. We're just two broads for one week out of every month going at it. I don't even understand why. Just emotions out of fucking control. She's in the bedroom crying over Love Actually. I'm in the living room crying over ESPN 30 for 30 documentaries [laughter] losing my mind.

Vanessa Handy: Speaking of choices, comedic choices, you are poking fun at yourself, your own community, your own experiences, but also other people. I've watched some sets where you are talking about the queer community. MeToo, feminism, and those are choices. There's, I guess, "risks" in how that's going to be perceived by the audience. Are you afraid of getting canceled?

Sam Jay: Not anymore.

Vanessa Handy: Why were you before?

Sam Jay: I think because I was newer in my career, so it sounded scarier.

Vanessa Handy: [laughs]

Sam Jay: I think that's all, honestly.

Vanessa Handy: Why not now? The time.

Sam Jay: I can't do anything about it. You know what I mean? Not to say it will never happen to me or whatever, but I can't create from a space of fear. I know my intent on things and sometimes intentions get lost in this house if they truly do. It can happen. I know in everything that I speak about, I'm always trying to better the thing. You may not agree with my way to better the thing, but I am always trying to better the situation and move the conversation forward.

[music]

Vanessa Handy: Fostering and furthering conversation is what Sam's HBO series PAUSE is all about. It's a different take on the late-night talk show format. The episodes bounce between intimate interviews, skits, and house party conversations that Sam refers to as drunken pontification, all with the goal of examining the cultural issues that divide us.

Sam Jay: Do you have friends that you feel are homophobic, straight friends that are homophobic?

Speaker 4: I have some people who have some homophobic ideologies and they don't know it.

Sam Jay: A lot of my homies, they have homophobic tendencies, I would say.

Speaker 4: Yes, right. Right.

Sam Jay: You can eat a hot dog or a banana in public. You're two steps away from that beat scene in Moonlight.

Speaker 5: I think the phobia got to drop because nobody is scared of y'all.

Speaker 6: They are, they just don't know.

Speaker 5: No, we're not--

Speaker 6: Because [unintelligible 00:13:06]

Speaker 7: I don't think they're scared. I think it's how you face fear though. I don't think--

Vanessa Handy: For me watching it, I think it really feels more out of the box than other shows that I've watched. I want to know what was your inspiration for this show in that format.

Sam Jay: I just thought about what I wanted to see that I wasn't seeing. I was like, "Oh, I just never really feel like I see shows where they just talk to actual people about what they're thinking about the stuff politically and socially. We always go to [unintelligible 00:13:37] West for this or this person for that. It's like, "All right, I very thoroughly understand these people's opinions on this, and they're speaking for how Black people feel. This is the way Black America feels about this."

I don't know if my homies on my block feel that way about this when I'm having conversations at parties. They're not as PC as what's being passed around. People are more conflicted about things than we're hearing. I think that stuff is important to hear because I think that's the stuff that brings people together, these very hard lines in the sand, I think take away from us. I just wanted to create something that I wanted to see, honestly.

[music]

Vanessa Handy: Sam Jay has come a long way since her start in standup. She's been a writer, host, executive producer, and can now add actor to that list. Recently, she had her film debut in the Netflix romcom, You People. The director handpicked Sam from the world of independent comics and asked her to join his creative world as Mo. Jonah Hill's best friend.

Sam Jay: Yo, Dave, Black girl, Black girl?

Jonah Hill: I wouldn't put it that way.

Sam Jay: Bro, you bagged a real one. This is crazy. Wait a minute, dog, This is way out of your league. If this girl is what you say she is, then I'm pretty sure she smells like cocoa butter and expectations, bro. You may want to slow down.

Jonah Hill: What do you mean?

Vanessa Handy: A Black best friend. It has a lot of history with being, I guess, tokenizing. Did you ever feel like you were going to be put in that position?

Sam Jay: I would say, of course, that enters your mind because it is the classic tokenizing thing. Then looking at the material and the fact that they were going to let me do me, I didn't feel like it was going to come off as. You got to try stuff. It's like even if it was like, "Oh," if people saw it and they'd be like "[unintelligible 00:15:32], crap." I don't think sometimes the audience thinks about what it is to be inside of a thing and inside of a creative art form that you're trying to grow in.

It's like, do I not take a role where I get to act across from Eddie Murphy, Jonah Hill for the first time, I can learn around this level of artistry because it might come off too tokenizing. It's a decision that needs to be made. It's not necessarily just like an easy one to call because even if I walk away, people hate the role, I still got the education, and that I can apply past that moment.

Vanessa Handy: It's an art form at the end of the day.

Sam Jay: That's what I'm saying. I think sometimes people forget that part of it.

Vanessa Handy: Yes, definitely. I want to get to the bigger picture a bit here as I wrap up and think about what you get out of humor. You talked about not operating out of fear and using it to connect to life and just feel more alive. What do you get out of using humor to talk about your identity? Why do that? Why comedy?

Sam Jay: I can't sing.

[laughter]

Sam Jay: I'm very bad at drawing but I've always felt like I had things to say. [laughs] Also, I don't know, I've always just been naturally funny and I've always looked at things from a perspective of like, this is funny because people are so just dumb and crazy. I find a lot of how we move around this world funny in a way that I don't think most people would think. I always felt like when you made someone laugh, they thought about the thing more than when you just preached a thing at them.

They're more open to the idea and they're-- If I come in and I'm in a room, but I'm like, you guys really need to start treating white people better because you are being bad. I'm just like [unintelligible 00:17:43] If you put it in a joke or you figure out this way to get to, "We all need to start treating each other better because we all are trash." You can get everyone humming to the same tune because they're laughing together. I just think it's this very galvanizing force.

[music]

Kai Wright: That was actor and comedian Sam Jay in conversation with our former intern, Vanessa Handy. We miss having you around, Vanessa. Notes from America is a production of WNYC Studios. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and on Instagram @noteswithkai. If you heard something you want to talk to us about, please do go to notesfromamerica.org and look for the green record button. You can leave a voicemail right there.

Theme music and mixing by Jared Paul. Reporting, producing, and editing by Karen Frillmann, Regina de Heer, Rahima Nasa, Kousha Navidar, and Lindsay Foster Thomas. André Robert Lee is our executive producer, and I am Kai Wright. Next week, we are celebrating Juneteenth Live from Houston. I cannot wait. I hope you'll join us. Talk to you then.

 

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