Speaker 1: What is capitalism like at its core? What is it really about?

Speaker 2: Capitalism is defined as an economic system in which the means of production and private property are owned and controlled by private owners for the uses of making a profit.

Speaker 3: The making of profit via ownership, like owning a factory or owning a house and being a landlord.

Speaker 4: A small group, vis-a-vis a large group.

Speaker 5: You first have to ask, what's the definition of capitalism? I think it changes depending on what your positions are, what your ideology is.

Speaker 6: Capitalism, it depends more on what you can achieve and not about what the states want you to do.

Speaker 7: People have opportunity to earn lots of money.

Speaker 8: Capitalism requires people to be exploited.

Speaker 9: We literally were out in the field as products. Where do we think capitalism came from?

[MUSIC-John Aarons: Everyone's Talking About Capitalism]

Everyone's talking about capitalism,

Capitalism, capitalism.

Everyone's talking about capitalism

Capitalism and they all seem a bit mad,

Capitalism.

Noel King: Welcome to Notes From America with Kai Wright. I'm Noel King. I'm filling in for Kai today, and I'm glad you're here. I'm the host of a show called Today Explained. It's a daily news podcast and radio show that's produced by Vox, and I've just wrapped up a big series called Blame Capitalism.

That's what we're going to talk about today, capitalism. This is our economic system. We all live with it, we all work within it, but do we understand it and do we love it or hate it? I got interested in this six years ago I was an economics reporter for both NPR and Marketplace, but I never once used the word capitalism on air.

Then in the summer of 2017, I heard someone use that word in a way that really hit me. Now that person was Vinson Cunningham. He's a staff writer and a critic at the New Yorker, and he's with me in the studio today. Vinson, thanks for coming in.

Vinson Cunningham: Hey, it's so great to be with you.

Noel King: I wonder if you remember this, it was a live taping of The Nod podcast. It was here at the Green Space at WNYC. You were talking about Jay-Z's new record, new at the time, 444, and you said that you and other writers saw an economic message in that album.

[MUSIC-Jay-Z: The Story of O.J]

Financial freedom my only hope

[beep] livin' rich and dyin' broke

I bought some artwork for one million

Two years later, that [beep] worth two million

Few years later, that [beep] worth eight million

I can't wait to give this [beep] to my children

Y'all think it's bougie, I'm like, it's fine.

But I'm trying to give you a million dollars worth of game for $9.99

I turned that 2 to--

Noel King: Now that we've heard it, I feel silly asking, but what is the economic message? What were you responding to?

Vinson Cunningham: I was responding to things like that. Implicitly, I think the message of this song, The Story of O.J is like financial freedom learning about businesses and financial literacy and real estate is another big thing. I think very problematically in this song, that this is the way forward. This is like the liberatory message that Jay-Z brings. This is what's going to help the race and the furtherance of the race, led by an uber-capitalist like himself. Who can first of all buy a painting for $1 million? He makes it sound so easy.

Noel King: Super easy. All you have to do is be Jay-Z.

Vinson Cunningham: The first step in his messages, have a lot of money.

Noel King: Be a millionaire. At the time what really hit me was you said, I don't think capitalism is the answer for Black people. That was a moment where I was suddenly hearing capitalism and I said, "Okay, wait a second." This is a big statement. What did you mean?

Vinson Cunningham: First of all, I was just so flattered to know that my comment had-- It's like you know how Helen is the face that launched a thousand ships?

Noel King: Oh, yes.

Vinson Cunningham: I felt like the big mouth that launched an audio series. Thank you very much.

Noel King: There you go.

Vinson Cunningham: I take I think capitalism to mean a system where not that commerce doesn't happen between willing individuals that, say, "Hey, would you like this? Here's my price." That a whole governmental system like the one that we live under is enthralled totally to private interests. Recently we learned that Elon Musk has satellites that can determine America's military aims in Ukraine, vis-a-vis Russia that's capitalism.

The fact that some guy who is a menace on Twitter has that much power because of his private ownership of a business that makes satellites. That is I think not a liberatory system for anywhere. It promises very high highs, but it leaves the floor, I think, where it is.

Noel King: Frankly, most of us are on the floor. This is the thing about capitalism is there are these vast inequalities, especially these days. Vinson, after I heard you say that, I was hit, I was struck. I went to my colleagues at Planet Money, an economic show on NPR, and I said, "Guys, we are not talking about capitalism, but people in the culture are. This is big." I was so excited. My colleagues, who were white gentlemen in their 40s and 50s were like, "No, that's just how college kids always talk." College kids are always dismissive of capitalism. Famously, you are not a college kid.

Vinson Cunningham: Famously. [laughs]

Noel King: You're a staff writer at the New Yorker magazine. You had an understanding of capitalism that they didn't and you've laid out what it is.

Vinson Cunningham: Sure.

Noel King: Where do you think it comes from?

Vinson Cunningham: I think from my generation, especially living through the great recession of 2008, the movements that grew out of that. Again, here's capitalism, not the fact that there are banks, but that banks can ruin the economy and then be the only ones that are built back up by the government. Then the movements that came out of that, Occupy Wall Street, then you move forward, especially to the 2016 election.

I think Bernie Sanders's campaign had a lot to do with this. I will admit to our readership and to the 40-year-old dismissive of this way of speaking that in 2017 is probably when I joined DSA. I'm a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. I think a lot of people in my age cohort, I identify as an elder millennial started to investigate this wreckage of those past, I guess call it five, six, seven years between '09 and that campaign and wonder was there something bigger past the immediate exigencies of the moment of politics that was structurally leading us down this path?

Noel King: I'm also an old millennial. I think I'm about four years older than you. I was eight years old when the Berlin Wall fell. I remember I was sitting in the back of my mom's car, I was riveted to the radio because the man on NPR, who is usually so calm, was yelling. He was like, "Checkpoint Charlie's coming down."

I'm like, I dropped my book. I'm leaning in. I'm like, "what is up with this man? I want to do that." and I did, but as an old millennial, I am convinced that part of this is generational and that if you remember the Berlin Wall, what you also remember is the threat of communism. This was a very real thing.

The West is convinced that communism is the ultimate evil. Both of these systems want to be the only system. I think some of the legacy in the older millennial, Gen X, and older mind is there was a time when there was a thing that was much worse than capitalism for humanity, and that was communism. Now, some people will take issue with that, and I understand it, but I wonder if you think that this might be generational, if you feel there are generational differences as a late 30-something.

Vinson Cunningham: I imagine that there are-- There definitely are, but of course, there have always been-- As I think there's like an emphasis on people that are newly energized socialists or whatever of like, "You got to do your reading." You find out that there are many people older than us. Not long ago we lost Mike Davis, a wonderful writer who lays these things out very clearly in terms of Los Angeles and things like this.

There has always been a remnant of people that weren't necessarily totally failed argumentatively by the anti-communism of the post-war era. Certainly, I grew up in the '90s where famously history was over and had ended.

Noel King: Famously.

Vinson Cunningham: I will admit that I was not exposed to those arguments, and I think that is a generational fact.

Noel King: Mike Davis, the author of City of Quartz.

Vinson Cunningham: Yes.

Noel King: Great book about Los Angeles listeners, pick it up if you haven't read it. It's really telling, and we want to hear from you. We want to hear if capitalism is working for you, why or why not? How has it changed over time? Vinson, where do you see it in the culture? Where do you see the critiques of capitalism in theater, in movies, and music?

Vinson Cunningham: I think it's really deeply baked in. First of all, one thing that is so clear not only in the political scene but also in culture and the arts is there's so many plays that have a union background to them. Dominique Morisseau, the playwright who I really admire, has a play called Skeleton Crew that's all about-- It actually happens in 2008, which is like, I think again, ground zero for some of this generational upheaval or whatever.

It's the back room of a factory in Detroit and all of the wreckage that's happening. One answer to whatever we want to call a monolith that is capitalism is labor, is organizing, is people trying to raise a floor instead of break through a ceiling, or whatever. I think that's been a big thing. A lot of my friends have been calling Hot Union Summer that we've just lived through there's been a corollary to that in the arts.

Noel King: I have a friend who every time he goes and sees all of the Marvel movies and he knows that I'm doing the series, and every time he sees a Marvel movie, he's like, "Noel, I'm telling you, there's anti-capitalist sentiment baked into these big blockbusters, and it's hysterical". Now, here's an interesting thing. I didn't embark on this series because I think that capitalism is evil or the worst thing ever. As far as I can see, for this country, capitalism may be what we have, we may have to work within it. I have been lucky. I had student loans, but I managed to pay them off after a decade. I did manage to buy a small house in Washington, DC. It's not a very nice house, but it's mine.

Vinson Cunningham: I'm sure it's beautiful.

Noel King: Capitalism in a lot of ways is working for me. I am wondering before we go to break, do you feel, you are 38, 39 years old, has capitalism worked for you throughout your life?

Vinson Cunningham: Largely, yes. I think that that isn't a badge of any necessary honor for me for many reasons. I got some very important educational opportunities at a very important time when I was 11 or 12 years old. A story of class mobility probably describes me growing up in the paycheck-to-paycheck working classes and being in some vague middle-class thing now, bougie Brooklyn or whatever.

Noel King: There you go.

Vinson Cunningham: Just, for example, I had a pretty serious life event earlier this year that made me all of a sudden not have healthcare. Certain things are working for me and certain things can shock you into a realization that they're working on the edge of a cliff. I think there's never a total working or not working. It's also just not satisfying to have something that's working for you and not for many other-

Noel King: Everybody else.

Vinson Cunningham: -people that you love and know.

Noel King: All right, we're going to take a quick break. That was a great answer. Up next, an economist is going to enter the chat and we're going to take more calls. Stick with us.

[music]

Kousha: Hey everyone, this is Kousha. I'm a producer. I want to remind you that if you have questions or comments about what you're listening to, we at the show would love to hear from you. Here's how. First, you can email us. The address is notes@wnyc.org. Second, you can send us a voice message. Just go to notesfromamerica.org and click on the green button a little bit down the page that says start recording. Finally, you can message us on Twitter and Instagram. The handle is @noteswithkai. However you want to reach us, we'd love to hear from you and maybe use your message on the show. All right, thanks. Talk to you soon.

[MUSIC-John Aarons: Everyone's Talking About Capitalism]

Everyone's talking about capitalism,

Capitalism, capitalism.

Everyone's talking about capitalism

Capitalism and they all seem a bit mad,

Capitalism.

Noel King: Welcome back to Notes from America with Kai Wright. I'm Noel King, host of Today Explained. It's a daily news podcast that also airs on NPR stations across the USA and I'm filling in for Kai today. We are talking about capitalism this hour. With me, New Yorker staff writer and critic, Vinson Cunningham, and Kirstin Munro is joining us now. She's a professor of economics at the New School. Kirstin, thanks for being here.

Kirstin Munro: Thank you so much for having me.

Noel King: Why'd you become an economist?

Kirstin Munro: Well, I grew up in a punk rock scene on the West Coast of the US, and in that particular scene it was very political, and knowing about the economy and politics made you cool. It was something that I started reading about and we'd go to book fairs for fun as punk rockers in California. Then when I got to college, it seemed like economics was a totally reasonable thing to study, and I think even especially reasonable because I was very lucky that at my college, almost all of the faculty were women.

Noel King: This is extraordinary. It's extraordinary enough. I covered economics for a long time and I'm very well aware it is a very male-dominated field. I wonder sometimes about whether the barrier to entry for women is not you don't have the grades, you don't have the interest, but it is, everybody's a man, and I experienced this myself, when I speak as a woman about economists, men are tempted to write me off.

Kirstin Munro: Well, I had an interesting thing happen to me once in a bar where I was talking to a man and he was saying something silly about the economy. I told him he was wrong, and I said, "No, I'm an economist," and then he hit me in the face.

Noel King: Oh. Oh, dear.

Kirstin Munro: I think it's a real thing [chuckles] that you're referring to. This is a real thing out in the culture that people are very threatened by women economists.

Noel King: Incredible. You recovered okay.

Kirstin Munro: I dumped his drink on the ground.

Noel King: Amen. Well, there you go. We've got a caller on the line. We've got Joel on the line. Go ahead, Joel.

Joel: Hi. Thanks, Noelle. Today I just had the occasion of meeting a very well-spoken 37-year-old man who is stuck in an $18-an-hour job in non-union Home Depot and he'd love to go to college but making $2,000 a month, he can't afford to. I told him to look into financial aid, but he doesn't have a car and he has a very good head on his shoulders.

Then I asked him what his politics were and he said, "Well, I don't really follow politics and I don't believe in either party." I said, "Oh, really? Okay." because I tend to be a Democrat. I said, "But I understand that because the Republicans are hopeless and the mainstream Democrats hardly ever talk about raising the minimum wage to something like $20 or $25 an hour. Bernie does, AOC does. Then I realized, of course, what I'm dealing with is a capitalist system in which the moneyed interest have captured the reigns of power and bought them off.

Noel King: Joel, it's a good point. We say one of the foundations of capitalism is free markets, but then you look around and you say are we really in a free market system? Kirstin, I wonder if I can throw that over to you. He's making a good point about certain interests being captured, certain interests capturing parts of the economy that are not as free as, say, Milton Friedman the great libertarian, I'm a fan of his-- As he wanted them to be. He believed everything out in the marketplace would solve itself. When you are in 2023 looking around, that seems like a bit of a myth that we really are in a free market system.

Kirstin Munro: Absolutely. A free market is something that has never existed anywhere. I think it's a mythical creature like Santa Claus. Keeping that in mind, if a market is just exchanging stuff for money and money for stuff, a free market means you can exchange money for stuff with no barriers at all on doing that, and so that has just not really ever existed in any place.

Noel King: Gregory is on the line, let's hear from Gregory.

Gregory: Yes. I'm a musician, a pianist, and so my economy is really pretty close to the ground because my fees for playing piano are usually direct from institutions and schools and that sort of thing. My career would be just immensely more easier, more successful if we had genuinely state-supported arts.

The way that ties into capitalism is that, of course, we know capitalism forces artists to compromise the quality of their work, to create art that happens to fill whatever the latest popular trend is. It has nothing to do with arts or the real human needs, for instance, Maslow and his housing, food, health, education, and we could include the arts. Capitalism really has never worked for me because we're right on the periphery of this economy.

Noel King: Listen, I hear you and I want to throw this over to Vinson Cunningham because he is a critic of theater. I wonder, Vinson, in your time, I don't want to say criticizing theater, in your time covering theater, do you feel like this is a complaint you hear a lot? That the system that we have does not make room for art and artists.

Vinson Cunningham: It's a huge concern right now. We see in the wake of the pandemic, a lot of theater companies are really going through a hard time shortening seasons, laying off staff, things like this. During the pandemic, I actually wrote a small bit about the post-World War II FDR-led Federal Theater Project. That there was a loosening of this laissez-faire approach to the arts.

There were state-sponsored, not just federal theater, but the Federal Writers Project. There were artists that we all know and love whose work was made possible by the state in a way that would seem, I think, you get a lot of epithets of communism thrown at you in the mainstream you made this a big plank of your politics.

Noel King: This is a really interesting point, Kirstin. We were going to talk a bit about the history of capitalism, and it does. It begins with Adam Smith, invisible hand, laissez-faire, the market will sort itself out, then World War II happens and suddenly it becomes clear, "Oh dear, the entire world is in a mess." Then it seems we reconsider capitalism in part because of a gentleman named John Maynard Keynes. Can you talk about how after World War II, the mindset shifts to, "Wait, should government be involved here?"

Kirstin Munro: Well, I think we can think about that period, and people call it the golden age of capitalism as this very specific and very short-lived period where governments in the "West" are trying to save capitalism from itself. The reason they're doing that is because they saw it self-destructing right before World War II.

We had nationwide strikes, massive economic crisis, and they also want to save capitalism from actually existing socialism. I think during this period, we have decreasing inequality, decreasing poverty, very high rates of unionization, very high top marginal tax rates, personal income, corporate income, and really active government involvement trying to smooth out the boom-bust cycle that's inherent to capitalism, and a new association for the first time with middle-class American prosperity and capitalism that hadn't existed before.

Noel King: One of the things I learned while working on this series, I was aware of the golden age of capitalism as a thing, and I was also aware that the golden age of capitalism excluded many people. If you were a Black person in America, if you were a woman in America, if you were a gay person in America.

I looked at what started to happen in the 1960s when groups that had been left out of the golden age started to make demands of businesses. We think of the '60s as everybody's out in the streets, everybody's protesting but in fact, there were a group of Black residents of the city of Rochester.

Rochester was dominated by a company called Eastman Kodak. It treated its workers wonderfully. Cradle-to-grave benefits, vacations, tuition, anything you could wish, but it didn't hire Black residents. Black residents of that city started to protest outside of the shareholders' meetings. Not in the streets, but outside of the shareholders' meetings, and say, "This company is doing it wrong. We are a big percentage of Rochester New York, and you don't hire us." Eastman Kodak in fact backed down. What I learned was that this opened the door for many different types of people who were being excluded from the golden age to get in companies' faces and say, "The purpose of a company is to engage with us. The purpose of a company is to give back to society, to take care of its people, to take care of the environment." That was not something I'd ever learned in school Kirstin.

Kirstin Munro: Well, there's a lot of things about the economy. I think they want to make sure people don't learn in school.

[laughter]

Noel King: It's a good point. There's a twist to that story. A really interesting twist. I'm not going to characterize it as unfortunate, but I think it is. Okay, I'll say it's unfortunate. In 1970, there comes a pivot point. Regular people are agitating for companies, you need to do this, you need to do that. The New York Times hires or gives an opportunity to Milton Friedman, a very influential economist to write an essay on what is the purpose of a corporation. What should a corporation really do? Friedman sits down and he pens this very dense essay that essentially says, "The purpose of a company is just to make money for its shareholders.

All of this stuff about social responsibility is nonsense. It is divisive. If companies start taking positions on social justice or social injustice, all of a sudden it gets very confusing." This for me had echoes of what happened earlier in the year when Dylan Mulvaney, the trans influencer was sent some cans of beer by a big company. There was this transphobic backlash. A young woman facing all of this hatred. I'm imagining the ghost of Milton Friedman looming over it all saying, "Guys I told you. This is what I told you. "What's really interesting Kirstin is that it's an essay that goes on to be enormously influential.

Something happens with that essay. The purpose of a company is just to make money for shareholders. That turns it into gospel. Where do we go from there?

Kirstin Munro: I think the thing about that essay that's so interesting is that Milton Friedman is fundamentally not wrong. The purpose of a business and capitalism is to earn profits for shareholders. That's its only purpose. Businesses are actually forced by the rules of capitalism, how it works, that they are compelled to continually grow, continually drive down costs, make profits, reinvest those profits forever and ever and ever. By doing this, that's actually what keeps capitalism going. I think it seems strange for me to say that Milton Friedman is right, but that's actually how it works. That is what businesses have to do.

Noel King: Maybe Vinson to your point, this is a problem with the system, right?

Vinson Cunningham: It makes things that seem very solid, like the amazing era of corporate benefits as you say cradle-to-grave. The moment somebody realizes, "Oh, we don't have to do that," and in fact, it might auger against the profit motive, then you shed that away. There's not one stable moment in capitalism. There's no permanent golden age because it's always moving towards something else and moving towards something else.

I would say that to our listeners in New York, it's like you don't have to stop to care about the environment and all of a sudden your city, and much of which is on an island is now flooded. Who has to deal with that the most? People who live in basement apartments that aren't coded. The poor, the people that Jay-Z is asking to go buy painting.

Kirstin Munro: There you go. The literal floor-

Vinson Cunningham: People are being flooded in their homes.

Kirstin Munro: -as we said earlier.

Vinson Cunningham: It just goes on and on like that.

Noel King: Listeners, we're taking your calls. We have got Miriam on the line. Miriam, go ahead.

Miriam: Oh, hey. Thank you for taking my call. I'm in my 70s and capitalism is definitely not working for me, because what's happening is if I have to go into a nursing home, God forbid, it's going to cost at least $4,000 a month. I don't have that kind of savings. People end up in those homes for decades. I hope it will never happen to me but if it does, I won't be able to pay for it. Which means that I have to reduce myself to absolute poverty. I have to have nothing in my bank account. I think I can have maybe $2,000 a month period and then have no property.

Then when everything is gone, everything has to be gone for six months, then I can apply for Medicaid and they would cover my nursing home costs. My family would inherit nothing and I would have nothing. Once I was in there, I would have no money to spend. If I wanted to buy a book, I couldn't buy a book because that would put me over the limit of how much money I was supposed to have on hand. I couldn't have enough money to buy a book.

Noel King: Miriam, you're making a point.

Miriam: That's the situation.

Noel King: What Miriam is talking about is the social safety net being incredibly frayed here. We expect there to be some help from the government for people who are infirm, for people who are elderly, for people who are young and on their own. We expect that kind of social safety net. In the United States, I think many people feel and have experienced it fraying out from under them. We're going to turn now to another listener. Himanshu is on the line. Himanshu hit us. What you got?

Himanshu: Thanks for a very nice discussion. I come from India. I came here like 20 years ago. The way I see comparing to economies like India and US I would say capitalism has given us a lot. I'm talking to you on a phone. There are two people in the middle. They took my call. They took my question and I can put my view across. It's a result of capitalism.

At the same time, I feel that we need a representation of everybody in capitalism. Even though I'm a man I cannot say that I can understand the views of Blacks, or women, or kids, or old people. They all have to equally represent themselves because only they can put their views. They can help in solving their problems. We need a better representation and I think we are at the right point where we can put our views, and let it go through rules and regulations, and make our lives better.

Noel King: A somewhat optimistic view of capitalism when it is inclusive. Vanessa is on the line. Vanessa, go ahead.

Vanessa: Hi guys. Thanks for taking my call. I'm in Chicago and capitalism is not working for me. Echoing what many other callers said, the social safety net. I'm in a critical juncture of my life where I'm possibly going to lose my job. The only concern I have is I won't have healthcare and I have a chronic condition. I need my meds. I have hypertension. I'll take a major pay cut, but the only thing that concerns me if any medical condition happens, I will just be completely set back. It'll just drain the savings that I have. It's just that kind of precarious life.

Again, it's all about the haves and the have-nots. The United States has a great medical system, but can you access it? I just feel it's all about the haves and the have-nots. Yes, I can't afford that painting that Jay-Z says I can just get.

Noel King: I want to bring this back to our economist Kirstin because I have heard baked-into critiques of capitalism even among people who really think capitalism is the best system we've found so far. That a capitalist society is always going to have people down at the bottom. It's always going to have people who are in the dregs of society. I'm not using those words just as an expression, but does capitalism create, perpetuate, and even demand this kind of inequality where we have a listener in Chicago and another listener, Miriam saying, "I just can't afford to live."

Kirstin Munro: Yes. I think capitalism as a way of organizing production in society is defined by the existence of two groups, workers and business owners. One owns nothing and the other controls everything we need to survive. For me, and I think I might be unusual in thinking this, the problem isn't inequality per se but it's whether or not most people have enough things that they need to survive and not just survive, but flourish and achieve their human potential.

For me, it doesn't matter how rich the richest person is as long as everyone else is doing okay. The flip side of that is that I think only changing the degree of wealth inequality is not enough to solve the larger problems with capitalism.

Noel King: Do you think there's a way Kirstin to do capitalism better? Then, Vinson, I'm going to turn that question over to you.

Kirstin Munro: I think you can imagine it as if you're living with a grizzly bear in your house, but it was there when you moved in. There are things you can do to try to make it less like the bear is going to kill you and your family, but that risk is always there and your life is probably going to be really stressful and chaotic, but you're used to it because there's this bear in your house and you don't know any different.

What I mean by this metaphor is that it's ridiculous for me to say that there's nothing we can do to reduce this incredibly human suffering and environmental destruction that's created by capitalism, but there's still an actual bear in our living room. If you'll kind of humor me and let me torture the metaphor for a tiny bit longer, this debate among economists is just around what best methods are for controlling the bear or if we should even control it. Most economists aren't even thinking about whether or not we should be living with a grizzly bear in the first place.

Noel King: All right. Kirstin has bought you a little time Vince, and we're going to go to a break.

Vinson Cunningham: Thank you.

Noel King: More coming up soon. More of your calls. Stick with us. We're happy to have you with us this evening.

[music]

Noel King: Welcome back to Notes from America with Kai Wright. I am not Kai Wright, I'm Noel King, I'm filling in for Kai today and we are talking about capitalism. The system, the feelings about it, and the evolution of those feelings. We're joined by New Yorker staff writer and critic, Vinson Cunningham and Kirstin Munro, who is a professor of economics at the New School. We've got Dominick on the line. Dominique, go ahead.

Dominick: Oh, hi. This is a great show, and I appreciate it. I wanted to throw this in. The IWW had the right idea. We need a massive strike. To my own shame, my union, the PSC-CUNY did not strike and has not-- We're not allowed to strike because of the Taylor Law in New York, but I think the one thing we could do with this bear, and I love that metaphor, although bears are not the problem, humans are, is-- What we need is collective action.

The discussion usually on WNYC about unions is favorable, but there's a lot of pushback about collective action. There's a right-wing push to take everything away. One of the things they love to do is undermine the power of collective action. You've got that sociopath from Florida, Tim Scott, who's talking about wanting to do a Reagan on striking workers, which he couldn't do because they're not federal workers, but anyway.

Noel King: You're making a really good point. I want to jump in here to talk about Ronald Reagan because there was a moment in the late '70s and early '80s when Ronald Reagan cracking down on strikers was viewed by many Americans as the right thing to do, the best thing to do, the thing that was going to drag the economy out of this slump, out of this terrible situation that somehow unions had created. What Dominick is identifying is a swing back and forth from the Keynesianism to the more neoliberalism. We've got Wendy on the phone now. Wendy, go ahead.

Wendy: Okay, I've got two points. I know this person in economy has read this because I've read this and it's not even my field. The late 1800s, it was in the law that a company had to make sure that they contributed to the public good. That's point number one. Second point, we have feral capitalism. They have capitalism in Sweden and they used to be Vikings. You have to have a mix of the two. They have a social network.

In fact, all the stuff that was done during the Depression, that was some Scandinavians from Wisconsin, who put in the Social Security and all that kind of stuff. They worked with FDR to put all that stuff in in the New Deal. Yes, Black people didn't get it. Women didn't get it. All these people didn't get it, but that was the sweetest model that you take care of everybody. It's not just capitalism, this is feral capitalism. F-E-R-A-L like a wolf.

Noel King: Well, you're making good point about the Scandinavian tradition. For listeners who are interested, look into it. In states like Wisconsin, and Minnesota, there is a tradition of progressive capitalism that did in many ways come over with people from Scandinavia. We have got Michael on the line. Michael, go ahead.

Michael: Oh, thank you. Very interesting subject. Anytime capitalism comes up as a discussion, it always drives me crazy, because I don't think that any of you guys are talking about capitalism itself.

Noel King: Go ahead.

Michael: What you're talking about is greed. I think the idea of establishing a charge for a service and delivering the service and getting paid for it, comes with it, the obligation to be fair about it. I think that companies, yes, their obligation is to their stockholders, but their obligation is to their employees to turn out a good product too.

Noel King: Well, what you're talking about is what was going on during the golden age of capitalism. What you're calling for is a return to form. Vinson, before the break, I asked you, is there a way to do capitalism better? This actually strikes me as kind of an easy solution. The United States has moved on in terms of demographics, with minorities, women, and LGBTQ+ people being included now. Why can't we all just be part of the golden age of capitalism the way it was in the 1950s? Let me ask you, what are your solutions? What do we do different?

Vinson Cunningham: I think that there's a phenomenon that happens when we talk about inclusive capitalism. There's a philosopher, his name is Olúfẹ́mi Táíwò. He's brilliant. He's got this book, it's about elite capture, where it's like, "Okay, we let more people into the room, but who gets a voice, like the richest Black person, or like the richest woman, the richest trans person." You can have an inclusive environment, where you look like a Benetton ad, but the interests of the masses are not ever represented in that room.

I think the antidote to that is collect, I think what we've seen over the past couple of years with union activity being more and more, the UAW right now, their leader, Shawn Fain. Is that the name of the--

Noel King: That's right.

Vinson Cunningham: The beautiful speeches every time he speaks, I'm just like, "Amen." We already have a model for I think, what we need, which is we do have a democracy in terms of where people-- Himanshu mentioned this, I can call in and I can lend my voice to this conversation. I think unions promise democracy in the workplace, that like everybody from the ground up, if I work here, I'm part of this system. It's not just the person that owns it who gets the final say. We all work here. We're all part of this enterprise and we all make it rise or fall together. I think that's been really heartening.

Noel King: Democracy, if we can keep it. We've got a text here from a listener. They asked, "Does anyone believe that capitalism underdeveloped Black America specifically?" This is a really good question because in a purely capitalist society, we would not care about a person's race, right? We would want everybody to succeed, the invisible hand would be doing its job. What we'd be positing is that something outside of pure capitalism is responsible for the vast inequalities between Black and white Americans. Kirstin, what do you think about this? Was this done specifically? Was this done deliberately?

Kirstin Munro: Absolutely. I think capitalism can't be separated from racism, because both capitalism's beginning and its continued existence is totally dependent on racism and maintaining inequality between these different groups. Capitalism begins with colonialism, enslavement, dispossession, and it never stops.

Noel King: Vinson, go ahead.

Vinson Cunningham: Yes, there's a great writer and thinker, the late Cedric Robinson, who's termed as racial capitalism, that these things are, ultimately and fundamentally entwined. That the character of capitalism in the West is necessarily racist. I think that when you think about those things in tandem, that you can't untangle those things, I think it clarifies a lot about the hope that if we could just stop being racist, then capitalism would be great. Can you point to a moment of capitalism, as it has been construed in our lifetimes and historical memory that hasn't included a racial element? I think the answer is probably no.

Noel King: I think that is part of the reason why young people who feel themselves to be very progressive, and I've actually seen things change in their lifetime, I think that's one of the reasons that they really have targeted capitalism. That they're not just talking about racism or the environment. They're like, "No, it is the whole system that we want to go after." It's an interesting development. I feel like I'm seeing it among Gen Z in a way that it was not present among millennials, outside of college campuses. I'm curious what you think. Kirstin, you teach Gen Z, what are they saying? What are you picking up?

Kirstin Munro: I've taught at a few different schools. I taught at a business school and I would have students say to me, point blank, I'm not a worker, I'm a job creator. I also have other students, not at the business school, who are very interested in understanding things like racial capitalism, and these problems. I think they're quite pessimistic about the future. They're concerned about global warming, and I think they are feeling pretty bleak about things.

Noel King: Vinson, what do you think? Does it matter that young people seem to be coalescing?

Vinson Cunningham: I think it matters hugely. We talked about this whole generational thing, to begin with. Everything I've read suggests that even millennials are the first generation that seem to be not getting more conservative as they age. This has been the American pattern. My daughter is a Zoomer. I think her politics are tremendous. I'm heartened by her friends and I can't wait for them to see what they do. I think it matters a lot.

Noel King: Have you ever heard them talking about capitalism, the young folks?

Vinson Cunningham: It's very much part of their-- It's like a precondition for the way they think. It's not-

Noel King: This is incredible.

Vinson Cunningham: -something that they've added on at a certain point. It's, I think, pretty baked in. In her high school, there were some conservative kids. There's high school Republicans, but they started from the premise that they needed to defend capitalism as an idea. It wasn't just the water in which they swim.

Noel King: It's just the way we do it.

Vinson Cunningham: Yes.

Noel King: This is fascinating to me because when I was 15, 16, 17, it just was not the thing that we talked about. It just wasn't the thing that we talked about. Now, we've got a listener here who is identifying as a member of Gen Z. Shout out Gen Z.

Vinson Cunningham: [laughs]

Noel King: He watched his parents go from middle class and then really, really, really struggle. I think that one of the things that becomes very clear in our society is that you can work yourself up, but then something like an illness or a job loss can have you back down in the dust. I think that's why so many Americans feel so precarious. It's not just, "The system didn't work for me."

We've said earlier, the system did work for me. The system could very easily not work for me if I come down with an illness that my insurance doesn't cover, or if my house floods. There are lots of things that could take me out of middle class really, really easily. I wonder how you guys respond to the idea that it may seem like America is a country of the middle class, and for a long time it was, and it has been, but you can lose that status because of the way that we're set up.

Vinson Cunningham: I've had this conversation a lot with some of the international students that I teach. I teach a class on theater criticism at Columbia, and one of my students is from Germany. She was like, "There's a lots of great things about this country, but I've never been more stressed out about healthcare in my life. I have always lived with the idea that if I got sick or if I got hit by a taxi or whatever I'd be okay. Now I'm thinking about healthcare." It just seems like there was such a further way to fall that precarity. I think is truly unique to our system. Other people come here and they're like, "Wait, what?"

Noel King: Other people, and not just Europeans. People from all over the world come here and they're like, "Oh, I thought this was a good place to make it. I didn't realize that you guys were all living on a knife's edge." I want to throw this over to listener Joel. Joel, what do you have to tell us?

Joel: I'm actually from Wisconsin, even though I'm living in Montreal now. I'm a retired auto worker member of UAW Local 438 in Milwaukee. I lived through the entire destruction of, basically, American basic industry and watched how families were destroyed, how my hometown was basically destroyed by deindustrialization. All of which was facilitated by both political parties. The Democrats cannot claim innocence in this at all.

One of my biggest concerns is, and the reason why I called because I actually think there's a really great conversation, is how do you resist? The problem in the United States and in Canada too, is that there is no real left anymore. You can forget about DSA frankly. Three of the DSA Congress people basically screwed the rail workers when they went on strike, I think it was earlier this year. What some of the callers talked about, mentioned the IWW, which is really almost ancient history, has some valuable lessons.

The new upsurge of the labor movement is a very encouraging sign, but there still is no political instrument that working people have in order to resist capitalism and the racism that it depends on, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. In fact, what's happening and what I think that the more intellectual side of the left needs to understand is that a lot of those working people who have been completely destroyed and alienated due to 30, 40 years of assault, those people, a lot of them are turning to Trump and the right wing. Why? Because--

Noel King: This is a point that I did want to make, and Joel, I thank you for bringing it up. In our series, we looked at when did Americans actually start using the word capitalism. We're all baked in it now, but there was a point when it happened. When it happened was in 2009 when a CNBC personality, Rick Santelli, is responding to President Obama bailing out homeowners. He says, "All you capitalists, let's get together and start a tea party."

There you go. Capitalism, the word itself enters the mainstream. Kirstin, for you as an economist, I'm sure it's at the front of your mind. For me, as somebody who just covered economics, that was the moment where we started hearing people yell about capitalism. I think our politics, from that point on, after the Tea Party, you have the emergence of Occupy Wall Street. These movements both take our politics in really interesting and even more extreme directions.

When the listener says there's no such thing as a real left anymore, it's a very, very interesting point. What might it look like if we were even more politically radical than we are, Kirstin?

Kirstin Munro: Well, I think the listener said that there's no real tool that workers have and there absolutely is, and it's withholding their labor through a strike.

Noel King: Let me ask you both because we're sort of running low on time here. Just a couple of minutes left. What you think people can and should take away from discussions about capitalism? It is a big question. I should probably give you five minutes to think about it, but let me put you on the spot, Vinson. What do you want people to take away from a discussion like this?

Vinson Cunningham: I am not an economist. I'm a writer who has thoughts. [laughs]

Noel King: Amen.

Vinson Cunningham: For me, I think the big thing is questioning when someone tells you that the answer to your problems is actually easy. When someone says, "Oh, you need to manage your money better, or "You need to learn how to invest," or, "You need to--" on and on and on and on. Ask if maybe, and I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility in my private life, but maybe there's something else afoot. Maybe there's something else under your feet.

Noel King: Kirstin, what do you think?

Kirstin Munro: Well, I think what you're describing is the fact that capitalism as a way of organizing production is actually gaslighting everyone. Not only capitalism but also economists are gaslighting everyone by saying, "Well, this is the best and only way we can do anything. This increases efficiency. If anything bad happens to you, it's your fault." I guess what I would want people to take away from this is that I just have to believe that there's some other way of organizing production in our society that promotes human flourishing and well-being and doesn't involve oppression, exploitation, and environmental devastation.

Noel King: I talked to an economist, Wendy Carlin, for this series, and she said, we need a new ism. This is a very smart woman, she's very engaged. She's been teaching economics for years. She has a PhD, she's a commander of the order of the British Empire in economics for her contributions and she said, we need a new ism. I think that's some of what we've been hearing today.

All right, folks, we're going to wrap it up for the day. Thank you so much to Vinson Cunningham. He's a critic and staff writer for the New Yorker Magazine. Thank you to Kirstin Munro, who's a professor of economics at the New School. Thanks also to all of our listeners who called in. You can keep talking to us. Just go to notesfromamerica.org and look for the green record button to leave us a message. Kai will be back next week. He will be listening to all of your messages, and I know that he will really appreciate them. Thank you to everyone who called in today. We had some really great ideas and a great conversation.

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Noel King: Notes From America is produced by WNYC Studios. We have theme music and sound design by Jared Paul. Matthew Mirando directed the live show today. Thank you so much, Matthew. Special thanks to John Aarons of Today Explained. John composed that music we sampled today, Everybody's Talking About Capitalism. Thanks, John.

The rest of the team here at Notes From America includes Regina de Heer, Karen Frillmann, Florencia González Guerra García, Kousha Navidar, David Norville, Rahima Nasa, and Lindsay Foster Thomas. Our executive producer is the great André Robert Lee. Thanks for everything, André. I'm Noel King. You can find me on Twitter @NoelKing. Thanks to everyone for a great conversation going into the week ahead. Take care out there on Monday.

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