Rachel Matlow: I think she rejected surgery because she was afraid. Like she was- she was more terrified than she'd ever been, and these miracle cures gave her hope, like, they were an escape hatch from facing her fears head on.

(Death, Sex & Money theme music)

Anna Sale: This is Death, Sex & Money. 

The show from WNYC about the things we think about a lot...

...and need to talk about more.

I’m Anna Sale.

(end Death, Sex & Money theme music)

Rachel Matlow is a 42 year-old, non-binary writer and audio producer who lives in Toronto. In 2015, their mom Elaine died from cancer, cancer that Rachel’s mom decided not to treat with conventional medicine. 

Rachel wrote a book about loving and arguing with their mom through those end of life choices. 

(music)

And it’s a wonderfully honest, painful and somehow also quite funny book called Dead Mom Walking: A Memoir of Miracle Cures and Other Disasters.

Anna Sale: How long does it feel like your mom's been gone?

Rachel Matlow: I mean, ah, that's- I think it does feel like it's been seven years, but sometimes it feels like I wouldn't be surprised if she just walked in the door. I- I don't think about her every day. I think about her a lot, but I don't know if I think about her every single day, like I used to.

(music fades out)

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm.

Rachel Matlow: So in that way, she- she feels a bit distant. But you know, I have her picture up on my fridge. I still talk to her in my head. I still- I still make fun of her. (laughs)

Anna Sale: (laughs) Oh, really? When, when you're talking to her in your head, as you said, like, what's that like? Is it out loud? Is it-

Rachel Matlow: Yeah, uh, it's more like, “Oh, mom would get a kick out of this.” Like, even right now, the fact that I'm talking about her to you, she would probably find hilarious. 

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: She'd be like, “Make me look good. Just make me look good.” (laughs)

Anna Sale: That's interesting. Do you speak back to her?

Rachel Matlow: Yeah. I say, “Why did you do what you did?” You know, there's times where I'm like, “I just- you should be here. You should be here for this, and you're not. And I'm like annoyed at you right now, cause of that.”

Anna Sale: When Elaine was growing up, she felt like her own mom had held her too close, in a way that felt stifling. So when Elaine became a mother, she wanted to do things differently with Rachel and their older brother.

Rachel Matlow: She had a very hands off approach. She gave me lots of freedom to do whatever I wanted, to eat whatever I wanted. And I remember when I started senior kindergarten and she said, “Oh, you- you're in senior kindergarten. It's full time. Um, you have to make your own lunch for school.” And I remember just being like, “Oh, like, what do I take?” And I think she said, “Your cousin Sarah takes a yogurt.” And so I was very famous at school from the time I was young, because one of my favorite concoctions was I would bring a cappuccino yogurt and then a box of Smarties-

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: -and pour the Smarties into the cappuccino yogurt and swirl it until all the dye came off. And then I'd usually like round it off with like a Coke, and maybe a Baby Bell for like, a bit of protein or something. Um, so, yeah. She- she just never told me what to do. And like, looking back, I didn't think parents did tell kids what to do. Like, I got to make all my own decisions. Um, I decided in grade two that I didn't like my school and I wanted to go to this other alternative school where I could play chess all day. And it just- I told my mom, “I found a new school and I'm going there.” So it was kind of great, but that being said, it probably wasn't so good for me to be eating, you know, uh, mini pita stuffed with Nutella for my lunches every day.

Anna Sale: (laughs) It sounds like you certainly made the most of your autonomy.

Rachel Matlow: I still can't eat Nutella today. I'm like, I'm so done with it. (laughs)

Anna Sale: Rachel’s parents split up when they were 10. Mostly, Rachel lived with their dad, but they also had a room at what Rachel calls Elaine’s “bachelor pad.” Elaine was in her mid-forties during the divorce, and afterwards she threw herself into personal growth.

Rachel Matlow: She was always going off to these Buddhist meditation retreats, shaman camp. Um-

Anna Sale: Was it really called shaman camp? (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: Yeah, she'd be like off to shaman camp. I was like, “What do you do at shaman camp?” Like, I don't think there was a lot of water skiing going on, or archery. Um, yeah, so I joke our dynamic, you know, technically it was mother and daughter, but it always felt more like mother and son just because of my gender. Um, but then I also joke that it often felt like father and daughter with like her being the, the unruly teenager. (laughs)

Anna Sale: Uh-huh.

Rachel Matlow: You know, always going off to these Buddhi- Buddhist meditation retreats and doesn't call, you know, um. So I think in a way I did feel a bit responsible for her. It was kind of my role always to kind of bring her back down to earth.

Anna Sale: And in your view, as you were sort of figuring out who you were and the kind of- the way you wanted your life to look, did you ever feel like your mom wanted your life to resemble hers more?

Rachel Matlow: No. No, not at all. There was no pressure. If anything like, that hands off approach, I- I would've liked them to be like, “Maybe you should do this.” Like give me some pointers in life. It's like, I feel like I have to figure out everything on my own. 

Anna Sale: Uh-huh, Uh-huh.

Rachel Matlow: You know, she really, I always felt like both my parents were very happy with me, even though, you know- I think maybe they preferred I didn't quit high school.

Anna Sale: Which you did.

Rachel Matlow: Yeah. And become a traveling hippie. Um, it was the late nineties (laughs) in my defense. But no, they were always pretty supportive.

Anna Sale: Uh-huh. 

Rachel Matlow: Yeah.

Anna Sale: How old were you when your mom was diagnosed with cancer?

Rachel Matlow: I was 30.

Anna Sale: And how old was your mother?

Rachel Matlow: 66.

Anna Sale: And, um, how do you remember that conversation- finding out?

Rachel Matlow: Uh, we were meeting up at this rooftop patio, uh, this top of the Park Hyatt, this hotel in Toronto where you can get this like, amazing view of the whole city. And, you know, mom loved going to places like that cause it just felt like an- you know, it's a very expensive martini that you get, but you feel like it's a mini vacation from, uh, life down below. And yeah, we're just catching up after work one day and then she just blurted it out. Sh- “I think I have cancer.” 

(music)

Rachel Matlow: And, you know, my mother is a good storyteller prone to hyperbole, so I didn't react right away. I just thought, okay, maybe she's scared, but I soon could tell that it was more serious. She was actually afraid. 

Anna Sale: Elaine was eventually diagnosed with Stage 1 rectal cancer, which has a roughly 90 percent survival rate after five years with treatment. After Elaine’s doctor noticed the tumor during a colonoscopy, he wanted to schedule surgery right away. 

Rachel Matlow: She protested because she already had a plane ticket to Peru. Uh, she explained that Machu Picchu was on her bucket list, so she had to do that first. (laughs)

Anna Sale: Uh-huh.

Rachel Matlow: And so I was already like, “What is this? She's like stalling.” 

(music fades out)

Rachel Matlow: Um, but- and then she came back and she started reading all these books by, uh, people who offered noninvasive remedies for treating cancer. All these miracle cure books, basically. Um, and, and she really started to believe that she- she thought she had just as good a chance of curing cancer on her own.

Anna Sale: Did you initially sympathize with her skepticism about conventional cancer treatment and the medical establishment?

Rachel Matlow: Yeah, I was a hippie anti-vaxxer. I- I took these, uh, homeopathic pills instead of getting my malaria shots when I went to India, like, I hung out at the health food store and ate spirulina. 

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: Like I had my, you know yeah teenage, um, health food phase. Um, but as I grew older, I- I became more balanced and, you know, realized, you know, maybe I'll just take a Tylenol instead of peppermint oil. And that actually feels a lot better. (laughs) So, but yeah- so I understood, but it seemed like she didn't grow out of it. Um, I understand, you know, chemo is poison and that, you know, big pharma as, as people call it is, is not the most trustworthy. That being said, uh, I realize you kind of have to pick and choose, what are your best odds. And I just don't think you can cure yourself of cancer with vegetable juice. So I think surgery was the best option.

Anna Sale: Uh-huh. And your mother, I mean, you, you say that sounds like a joke, but is that- what did your mom, as she took on an alternate path to trying to manage her cancer, like what, what did she try?

Rachel Matlow: I mean, what didn't she try? (laughs) I mean, like she was taking an herbal tincture. And she would even put freshly ground up flax seeds in her champagne. She took scorpion venom. She did oil pulling, coffee enemas. She would talk out loud to her cancer cells, um, with respect. She kind of just cherry picked what she liked from various protocols. Um, and yeah, like, I was pretty freaked out about it. I- I kind of went back between arguing my case and then trying to be supportive. Um, but I, I just kept thinking that it for a long time, that it was, it was just a matter of time until she'd come around and get surgery.

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm. And when you would make your case for surgery, when- when that, when that conflict, like, reared itself in its most intense way, where you really felt the standoff, like, what would she say back?

Rachel Matlow: Well, she would usually try to shut it down pretty quickly by just saying, “I've made my decision and I don't wanna talk about it.” So she, I guess she thought, um, I was bringing her down with my negativity. So she basically told me that I had to stop arguing with her, or she wouldn't wanna be my friend anymore. So basically she threatened to cut me out of her life. Um, which I didn't really believe, but it was still hurtful and it still made- and- and, and it was shocking.

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm.

Rachel Matlow: Um, it wasn't the mom, I had thought I knew.

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm. Did she think she was taking care of her health?

Rachel Matlow: Yes.

Anna Sale: You do think she was- uh-huh.

Rachel Matlow: She really wanted to live. And she really thought she was gonna die if she- not necessarily on the operating table, but in the process, you know, of, of being pulled into the system. She just thought she would be giving up all agency and they would go to work on her. Um, she's somebody who grew up- came of age in second wave feminism and, and really wanted to push against the norms and do things in counter cultural ways. I think when it came down to it, trusting the doctors, giving up control, was just too difficult. You know, she wanted to be in control of her own treatment, even if it was just a fantasy.

Anna Sale: Hm. That must have been so hard, Rachel.

Rachel Matlow: Yeah, it was pretty frustrating. (laughs) But you know, when you're in something, you have this adrenaline. And you know, I would tell myself, “You know what, maybe, uh, her cancer just won't catch up with her for another 20 years. You know, it's not like they do tests or, or do studies on people who just let their cancer grow. So maybe, maybe it'll just take a really long time to kill her.” Um, all the different kind of mental gymnastics I did, um, kind of just helped me stay sane at the time.

Anna Sale: Uh-huh. And what was it like, you know, with this, in the background of your relationship during those- those four years, like, what were your conversations like when you weren't talking about cancer? 

Rachel Matlow: (laughs)

Anna Sale: Could you- could you pretend like it wasn't happening?

Rachel Matlow: Yeah. I mean, for the- life kind of continued on as normal in many ways. And, you know- she would refer to it as, um, having a touch of cancer. She would say, “I just have a touch of cancer.” Uh.

Anna Sale: Oh. That’s like charming and also so tragic. Like-

Rachel Matlow: Yeah.

Anna Sale: Yeah.

Rachel Matlow: Exa- yeah. It's like a- yeah.

Anna Sale: How much did you share with people close to you about that battle you were having with your mother?

Rachel Matlow: Um, my close friends knew, but it was hard because at the beginning, you know, people would say, “Oh, has your mom started treatment yet?” And I would have to be like, “No, she's taking herbs instead.” And then they would be horrified. And then that would make me horrified. And so every time I talked about it, it would just stress me out. So I think- and especially as she kind of went deeper in her denial, I just found it easier to not talk about it. 

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm.

Rachel Matlow: And my dad saw it the same way as I did, but basically my mom was able to convince everybody else in her life that she was doing the right thing. 

Anna Sale: Uh-huh.

Rachel Matlow: So it did make me doubt myself. And, and she's the parent like, she's- she, you know- maybe I should just trust her. And you know, who's gonna- who's gonna fight with- with a woman who's- who's saying “I have the right to choose my own course of treatment”? Like, only me. Like, I'm like the horrible anti-feminist child who's denying her rights. Um, and also like, my mom was known for her authenticity. She had taught a consciousness raising group. She- she even underwent cognitive therapy for her chocolate addiction. Like she was the most self-aware person we all knew. So no one would believe that Elaine was in denial. It was brilliant.

Anna Sale: Oh. You know, I think we all, we all wanna believe that we can- if we can just figure out the right words, when someone we love is not understanding or hearing us, or we are very concerned that they're making choices that are harmful to them, we- we really all wanna believe that if we can summon the right words, we can get through that impasse. Um, and I think of your relationship with your mother as having so much- there was so much affection and respect between you two. What did it make you learn about the limitations of your ability to pull someone into seeing your point of view?

Rachel Matlow: Yeah. I think what I came to realize, uh, is that my mom was operating from an emotional place, where reason- logic was suspended in the face of fear. And that, you know, like my- my therapist, uh, who really helped me through a lot of this stuff, she says that I thought I was talking to the mistress of the house when really I was talking to her armored guard, who was not letting any information pass the gate. So… like her system was just so shut and absolute, that I guess I- it just made me really realize like, yeah, the, the limitations of logical thinking. 

Anna Sale: Talking to the armored guard- it's like, whenever she felt like you were coming at her, it just, it immediately led to a self protection reaction, as opposed to being able to hear anything you were saying.

(music)

Rachel Matlow: For sure. It just made her dig her heels in deeper. And I think, well, I just think that she just really needed to be listened to. I think that's one thing, um, that conventional medicine could get better at, is- is treating, you know, people's emotions as well as their body. Cause I think that's what really appealed to her about all these healers, is that they really took into account her emotional world. And I think that's really what she needed.

Anna Sale: Coming up, what it was like, after all this, for Rachel to be the primary caregiver for Elaine in her last days, and what they talked about as her end got closer. 

Rachel Matlow: My mom was speaking clearly from the perspective of someone who had experienced the loss of her- like her parents, you know. It's like she was, um, like a club member giving me a welcome packet. (laughs)

(music fades out)

(Death, Sex & Money theme music)

Anna Sale: As we were making this episode, I kept thinking about all of the stories of really deep family disagreements that you’ve shared with us over the past few months, when we asked about your experiences with estrangement. We’re making that series now. You’ll get to hear it in about a month or so. Thank you to all of you who have shared so far. 

But one side of estrangement that we are still missing is from the perspective of a parent who's had a child cut off their relationship with them. 

I’ve been thinking about this because not long ago, I took my two girls out on a walk in the neighborhood, and they both happened to be wearing sparkly princess costumes. A neighbor whom we hadn’t met before ran out to meet us on the sidewalk. She’d seen us coming and wanted to give them a magic wand- which was really one of those dishwashing brushes with the long handle- they were so pumped about this magic wand. We thanked the woman, and she told us how the kids reminded her of her own daughter. Then she paused, her eyes filled with tears, and she quickly mentioned they weren’t currently in touch, and she rushed off with a hurried goodbye. 

If that is an experience of estrangement that’s familiar to you, tell us about it. Our email is  deathsexmoney@wnyc.org. You can send us an email or record a voice memo. 

On our next episode, I’m talking with another creative person about losing a mother. Hrishikesh Hirway, the musician and host of the podcast Song Exploder, lost his mom to a degenerative illness. And he talks to me about that, and about watching former Supreme Court justice Sandra Day O'Connor navigate her diagnosis of Alzheimer's.

Hrishikesh Hirway: She had an agency about it, um, that, uh, I admired and also kind of felt sad about- that my mom didn't get to have something like that. In some ways I was almost jealous of the idea that she could so eloquently express this is what's happening to her.

(end Death, Sex & Money theme music)

Anna Sale: This is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. I’m Anna Sale. 

Ten months after Rachel Matlow’s mother died, Rachel made a radio piece about grief and missing their mom that ran on the CBC in Canada. It won a big audio prize, a Third Coast award. And that piece is actually how I first got to know Rachel’s work. And I want to share a bit of it with you here because it’s really special and will give you an up-close sense of their relationship.

(excerpt from “Dead Mom Talking”)

(leaves crunching, birds chirping)

Rachel Matlow: Hey mom, I'm here, at your bench. Looks really good. It's just what you wanted. You really have missed a lot in the past year. Your after party went really well- lots of people came, and I even did stand up comedy about you. You know you've always been a source of good material. And you'd be happy to know that Harper is out, Trudeau got in. Oh and the second season of Transparent is really good. I wish we could have watched together. And the holidays and birthdays haven't been the same without you, bringing up something inappropriate at the table, like furries. 

Elaine Mitchell: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: I miss that laugh. I really wish I could talk to you.

Elaine Mitchell: Yeah. That's a common thing I keep reading, that people are here- that “If only I could just pick up the phone once and talk to her again.” If you want, just talk to me, just think you're talking to me.

Rachel Matlow: Okay. But it's not the same as you actually being alive and here right now.

Elaine Mitchell: It's not the same, but- no, it's not the same. No, it's not the same.

Rachel Matlow: I sometimes just think you're on a really long silent meditation retreat. I don't know where you are, but I wish you were here.

Elaine Mitchell: I know. I wish I were here too. (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: I just don't know how to get through this without you. I mean, I- I knew I would be sad, but I never knew I'd be this sad. What would you tell me if you were here?

Elaine Mitchell: I would tell you that everybody has a lot of sadness in their life. Everybody does, no matter what they look like on the outside. And sometimes you go for quite a long time with everything great. But everybody does suffer. And so it's not weird or wrong or not socially acceptable to be sad.

Rachel Matlow: I know it's not weird, but I'm not always sure I know what to do.

Elaine Mitchell: Well, one thing is just to sit with it. That's the Buddhist way. You just feel the loss and the pain, and it'll move. It'll move a lot faster than if you try to like, just chuck it away or suppress it, or, you know- it’s just better to say “I'm missing my mother right now.”

Rachel Matlow: I’m missing my mother right now.

Elaine Mitchell: If you're sad, be sad. Because it's life. You can't- you know what I mean, it’s- unfortunately, people die, we all die. So. And the people left behind are the ones who really suffer. Like, I mean, the person might be terrified of dying beforehand, but I don't have any worries about going to hell, or heaven. (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: I'm glad you have a sense of humor about it, but as the person left behind, what else can I do when I miss you?

Elaine Mitchell: Uh, you could- I have a lot of diaries that are usually like, “Oh, I'm so unhappy. I da-da-da…” but I'm not gonna throw them out. If you wanna read them, if you wanna know about my sex life, you can. (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: Mom.

Elaine Mitchell: Um, but it is a way you might want to- or some of them, or start them or read pieces. I- I think it would be… you know what I mean, I think it would really bring me back cause they're all handwritten and they're um, pretty raw.

Rachel Matlow: I wish they could really bring you back. But I'll still give him a read at my own risk. I just can't get over the fact that you won't be here to see some really big things in my life. Like if I get married or have a kid.

Elaine Mitchell: Oh cripes. There's nothing you can do, except I wanna tell you this, and I want you to remember it- that I couldn't be any prouder of you than I am today, but I wish I could see that. I do. I mean, I wish I could see everything that goes on in your life from now on. I just had a thought. 

Rachel Matlow: Yeah?

Elaine Mitchell: If you do have a daughter, could you give her Elaine even as a middle name?

Rachel Matlow: Sure.

Elaine Mitchell: Okay. I would like that.

Rachel Matlow: Well, only if I have a daughter.

Elaine Mitchell: I know, but if you did. Or a dog. I mean, how many dogs are named Elaine? It would be very interesting. (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: (laughs) Yeah, that wouldn't be weird at all.

(end excerpt from “Dead Mom Talking”)

(music)

Anna Sale: When did you get out your audio recorder?

Rachel Matlow: Um, maybe three months before she died, is when I started talking to her.

(music fades out)

Anna Sale: Was there conflict during those recording sessions, that you remember?

Rachel Matlow: Nope. I, I really just listened. You know, I- I would count the little homeopathic balls and, and put them into the water for her. You know, God forbid I give her an overdose. (laughs)

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: Yeah.

Anna Sale: How would you fill your days when you were- when you had shifted into 24 hour caregiving, um, what would you do in a day together?

Rachel Matlow: We watched a lot of thrilling television. 

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: Um, It felt like a seven week long pajama party. I put all my chess games on hold. I took a leave of absence from my job. And yeah, I- I took care of her, but like I also needed to be with her. Like I- I needed her, in that time. Um- 

Anna Sale: What time of year were those seven weeks? What season was it?

Rachel Matlow: I think it started around tulip season, whatever that is. May, June.

Anna Sale: Hmm.

Rachel Matlow: Cause I remember we were getting lots of tulips for her. Um, yeah. And then she died on July 6th. 

Anna Sale: Mmm. How soon after her death did you, were you listening to those audio recordings?

Rachel Matlow: Oh, pretty much right away. I found it was the only thing that made me feel better, is to still hear her voice.

Anna Sale: We both make audio, and we both edit audio. And as I was thinking about you having these recordings and then having the opportunity to edit your mother, um- it struck me that like, when so much of what had been so painful during her illness was that you couldn't get her to say back what you wanted her to say when you were trying to express something, um, did you think about that? Like-

Rachel Matlow: (laughs) Mm-hmm.

Anna Sale: -did you feel that?

Rachel Matlow: I don't think I was conscious of that, but totally what you're saying makes sense. You know, it's like- yeah, who's, who's the real control freak here. (laughs)

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: It's like, “Mom's finally gonna do what I say.” Um, but I mean, that being said, I- I don't think I really like took liber- like I didn't actually edit too much of what she said. Like I didn't Franken-edit it, you know, 

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: Like she actually said those things. (laughs) I, I think I joked that it's kind of like that Natalie and Nat King Cole duet, “Unforgettable.” 

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: It’s my inspiration. Um, but you know- then of course there was so much more to the story.

Anna Sale: I'm, I'm curious, like on the one hand, um, the details of- of the story of your- your mother's illness and the- the conflict about how to deal with medical care, are so specific and- and kind of extreme. Um, but I wonder if in talking about grieving a parent with other people, are there ways that you like come to sort of see like, “Oh, this is also just part of losing a parent”?

Rachel Matlow: It's hard to say, because I do feel different from other people- like I've had a couple conversations with people whose- whose mother also refused conventional treatment. And I relate to them more, cause there's something very specific about just those extra feelings of- of feeling like I couldn't have saved her. And, also just the- the riddle of why somebody would do this. I find… that's helped me more? To know that my mom's not the only one who's made such a far out choice. 

(music)

Rachel Matlow: And even just like the frustration of dealing with people in the pandemic who are refusing to get vaccinations and just having these- those kinds of conversations, um.

Anna Sale: Yeah.

Rachel Matlow: They really remind me of my mom.

Anna Sale: Rachel, have you, um- have you felt pulled to become a parent?

Rachel Matlow: Oh (laughs) I mean, no, no.

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: No I mean- it's hard enough just getting myself up every day and like, you know, two matching socks, breakfast, lunch, every day, like- I'm still working on (laughs) uh, myself. Uh- yeah, I don't know, maybe.

(music fades out)

Anna Sale: Did you think about like, did- did going through your mother's illness and death, like did you think about becoming a parent in one way or another that was new after going through that? Did it feel less appealing, more appealing?

Rachel Matlow: I don't know, I- you know, so many people wanna be a parent to do things differently. But I think in that, often you- people give their kid what they needed, and not necessarily what the kid needs. Like it just makes me think how the pendulum can really swing from one side to the other. Um, you know, my mother is who needed the hands-off approach to parenting, not necessarily me. And I probably could have used a bit more hands on, (laughs) um, mothering, but our- our relationship was wasn't perfect, but it was great. And- and I'll take that.

(Death, Sex & Money theme music)

Anna Sale: That’s Rachel Matlow. Their memoir is called Dead Mom Walking: A Memoir of Miracle Cures and Other Disasters. It was just published in the US after coming out in Canada in 2020. Do check it out. I thought it was fantastic. 

And that audio piece from Rachel, that we excerpted, first ran on The Sunday Edition on the CBC. It’s called “Dead Mom Talking.” There’s a link to it in our show notes if you want to listen to the piece in its entirety.

Death, Sex & Money is a listener-supported production of WNYC Studios in New York. This episode was produced by Lilly Clark. The rest of our team is Liliana Maria Percy Ruiz, Afi Yellow-Duke, Zoe Azulay, Lindsay Foster Thomas, and Andrew Dunn.

The Reverend John Delore and Steve Lewis wrote our theme music. 

I’m on Instagram @annasalepics, that’s P-I-C-S, and the show is @deathsexmoney on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Thank you to Angelina Lucento in Tucson, Arizona for being a sustaining member of Death, Sex, & Money, and supporting us with a monthly donation. You can join Angelina and support what we do here by going to death, sex, money.org/donate.

And Rachel told me Elaine didn’t just run workshops and write in her journals, she also published a book. 

Anna Sale: How can we find some of your mother's writing?

Rachel Matlow: Oh my God. Write me, and I'll send you a copy of her dating guide for women over 50. (laughs) I've inherited a few boxes of them. 

Anna Sale: The dating guide, that would be Silver Fox?

Rachel Matlow: Yeah. Silver Fox: A Dating Guide for Women Over 50, but I- I really think it's good for all ages. (laughs)

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Rachel Matlow: Oh, maybe you could have like a giveaway, uh, if you want, I'll give you as many as you want-

Anna Sale: (laughs) Our next pledge premium is Silver Fox?

Rachel Matlow: The first hundred people to write in! Get a copy of Silver Fox. 

Anna Sale: I’m Anna Sale and this is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. 

(end Death, Sex & Money theme music)