Niecy: Jessica identifies my loving her out loud as courageous. But the truth of the matter is we only need courage in the face of fear. And I was not afraid to love her to the top of my throat.

This is Death, Sex & Money. 

The show from WNYC about the things we think about a lot....

....and need to talk about more.

I’m Anna Sale.

I last spoke to actress Niecy Nash back in 2017. It was onstage at the Ace Hotel in Los Angeles. And in the five years since, her life has changed dramatically, including falling in love and marrying her wife, Jessica Betts, an R&B singer-songwriter. 

I talked to them over Zoom, while they were at home, sitting on a couch together in LA. They have the kind of love where they finish each other’s sentences, and after almost two years of marriage, they’re still both so awestruck that they’re together.

They told me that when they first met in 2015, they began a deep friendship… and neither of them was expecting to fall in love.

Niecy: Well, what happened was I saw Jessica in a documentary and–

JB: The Same Difference.

Niecy: A documentary called The Same Difference. And she didn't even speak in the documentary, but when I saw her something ethereal went through me that said ‘cover and protect.’ And in my prayer time, I said, you know, well, how do I cover and protect someone I don't even know? And I said, well, I'll follow her on social media and I'll pray for her. That's, that's all I could really do. You know, just pray for her gifts and, you know, pray for her life, pray for her wellbeing. And when she noticed I was following her, she sent me a DM that said, ‘I'm looking for people of note to make videos about my music. If you wouldn't mind making a video, that would be great.’ What? What? Say it.

Anna: You're leaning in, Jessica.

Niecy: That I left you on read for three months?

JB: Yeah, she left me on read for three months.

Niecy: That’s true. But I still made the video.

Anna: You didn't reply.

Niecy: No, but I still ended up making the video and we became friends. I was in a long-term marriage. She was in a long-term relationship. And we just were friends only. And I booked a series called Claws on TNT. And I thought about her for one of the characters, suggested her and they wanted to see her. So I said, I will work with you via FaceTime to prepare you for this audition, because she's like, ‘I'm not an actor’ and I'm like, ‘you will be, stay tuned.’ And so she ended up at some point booking something on the show, and that was when we saw each other for the first time face to face.

JB: Yep.

Niecy: And what did I say to you the first time I saw you? The very first time I saw you face-to-face what did I say?

JB: Well, I was walking out of the, uh, trailer, and the first thing she said to me was, ‘Oh, okay. You what the people want to see!’

Niecy: You’re what the people want to see, baby!

Niecy: But, but, but even at that, it wasn't ‘you’re what the people want to see’ like ‘oh’ like–

JB: Yeah, because it wasn't. See, well, you're my wife now, but when– cause I was about to say when I met my wife– but when I met Niecy there was never any energy or she never came across as anyone that I felt like I could flirt with, or I never even felt that it was even respectable to, you know, kind of make a pass at her or anything. All of that stuff was off limits. It was out of bounds. So when she said that I didn't take it, um, as something sensual or sexual, it was something more empowering and like motivational. She was like, ‘oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. You, you, you, you what the people want to see.’ I'm like, ‘okay, thank you.’ You know what I'm saying? So that was the energy I got from that.

Anna: So you're looking at her, Niecy, and you say, ‘Jessica, you're, you're the, what people want to see– you, you've got some star quality’ kind of is what you’re saying.

Niecy: Yes

Anna: Like I see you

JB: I felt fully seen.

Anna: We’re going to get you in front of the camera. I see. I see. And I just, I just want to go back to what you said, Niecy, this urge to cover and protect Jessica. What, how do you understand that?

Niecy: At the time I didn't. Uh, but after we met, she became my friend, and my cover and protect of her looked like– let me help you If you're having a challenge in your relationship, let me give you the best advice I could give you. Oh, wait. The people didn't do your contract. Right? Let me call them. Oh, I found out about this thing and I referred you to it. Oh, you're performing somewhere? Let me come support you. That was how I interpreted it. And that was how it laid out for us until one day I looked at her and my eyes crossed. And I said, who are you, and where did you come from?

While Niecy was filming a movie in New Jersey, where Jessica lived at the time, they discovered they were staying five minutes away from each other. Back then, Niecy was in the process of getting divorced and the news had leaked while she was filming. It was a hectic period for her, but they found time to hang out… 

Niecy: I was on my way to go get crabs, by myself. And she said, ‘oh my God, I want crabs!’ The space– the spot was right in the middle of where we both live. I said, ‘meet me at the crab spot.’ Shout out to Just BeClaws in Jersey City.

Anna: Just BeClaws!

Niecy: So I go to Just BeClaws and guess who's not there? Jessica. 

Anna: Jessica.

Niecy: So I'm like, well–

JB: I’m late, I’m tardy to the party. 

Niecy: I ordered my food. Listen, I had crab juice all on my elbows by the time she showed up. That's how I know it wasn't a date, because I didn't care. I don't even remember what I had on because I didn't care. 

JB: Yep.

Niecy: And while we were eating and just chatting, I just looked at her and I was like. My eyes– I felt like my eyes went ‘Aooga’. And I was like, wait a minute. Who is this sitting across from me? I felt like I saw her with fresh eyes. And then I–

Anna: Did you feel that Jessica?

Niecy: Not in the moment, she probably didn’t. 

JB: Let me answer that! 

Niecy: Oh, sorry. I'm a good actress. I wasn't letting you know nothing.

JB: I didn't, I didn't know. But I was, um, I, I– but at the time, you know, I didn't know, but I was very curious after we had a conversation, we spoke for a little while. I'm like, okay. You know, cause she's asked, she had asked me to go back to her place after the, after we ate and I was like.

Niecy: Ok, pause, pause.

JB: Going back to your place, like– what?

Niecy: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Here's what happened. I felt flutters. I felt hot. I felt like my pits was sweating. I was like, I feel something, but this is unusual because this is my friend and it’s a woman, so I couldn't get a read on it. So I was like, let me, I want to keep the night going to see if I'm crazy. Or if what I'm feeling is a thing. So I was like, ‘uh, I'm getting ready to go home and watch my favorite movie if you want to come.’ And she was like, ‘uh, okay.’ So we–

Anna: What movie? 

Niecy: The original Sparkle with Philip Michael Thomas and Irene Cara, thank you very much. So we go back, we watch the movie and I'm still like, my stomach has butterflies in it. This is crazy. I don't know what is happening, but after the movie ended, I didn't have any more tricks. I'm like, okay. The movie is over, uh, ‘alright. See you later.’ And she was like, ‘okay.’ And we hugged each other. And I kissed her on the cheek, but the kiss on the cheek was soft.

JB: It was a– it was a kiss on the cheek.

Niecy: And passionate. 

JB: It was that kiss.

Niecy: And when we pulled back and looked at each other, she just, she saw it in my eyes and she said, ‘you want to go lay down?’ And I was like, ‘yeah!’

JB: I still can't believe you’re mine, baby. I'm sitting here looking at you right now, can’t believe you’re mine. I love you.

Niecy: I love you too.

Anna: Huh, wow. I need to take a breath after that story. Um, well I have two questions. I have one for each of you. So Niecy, in your life, when you feel like that kind of flood of emotion previous to this night. And, and you're like, I don't understand what this is about. I don't understand where this is leading me. Are you the type of person who's like, well, I'm just going to go for this. I don't know what this, what's going to happen– like is that part of your personality or was this a little unusual because you were in kind of a state of transition in your life and there was a lot up in the air?

Niecy: Okay. So let, let's unpack that real quick, to be clear. When I see something, I'm attracted to it, I want it, I go get it. No is not an option, cause I'm going to come back with everything I set out to go get. However, I have never started with anyone who I was friends with first. So that was the, the hesitation. Um, and on the other side of it, I also, you know, ran away and ghosted because– not of shame, but because I felt like man, if I ruined this and I can't be friends with this person anymore, I'm going to be devastated. Because I wanted to know JB, I call her JB. I wanted to know Jessica until they threw dirt on my face. I wanted to always keep her friendship. Um, and I was like and if this moment in time messed it up, I’ll never forgive myself.

JB: She didn’t know, she didn't know if I was the hit it and quit it type, you know what I'm saying?

Anna: Uh-huh.

JB: And I believe–

Niecy: What? No, that’s not true.

JB: But– but to add to her story. She did, she ghosted me. So we, we, basically, I felt like we were so intimate, I felt like we made love, you know, that night. And then the next day crickets, nothing. I text her. 

Anna: Mm, did you reach out? You reached out.

JB: Yes! I'm like, ‘good morning.’ I woke up like hella excited and happy. ‘Good morning. How you doing?’ Um, crickets, ‘good afternoon.’ I was like, okay, well maybe she's sleeping. Maybe she's in a meeting. ‘Good afternoon.’ Crickets, no response. Dinner time. I'm like, ‘well, good evening!’ Crickets, nothing. And this, this went on for like days, and I was like, oh man, I was just like, something's happening.

Niecy: I was just afraid.

Anna: Hm, Jessica– should I call you JB? Or should I call you Jessica?

JB: You can call me JB.

Anna: Which do you prefer?

JB: JB.

Anna: Okay. JB, did you, um, had that happened before with you and if you'd– had you ever been with somebody who thought of themselves as straight before they were with you and then they freaked out, had that happened to you before?

JB: Uh, yes. Yes, I've, I've had experiences with women that never had experiences with women before, yeah.

Anna: And, um, when that was happening with Niecy, was there part of you like, oh man, here's where we are again?

JB: It was– yup. Absolutely. You know, um, because, you know, I understood what she was feeling. Um, based off of my prior experiences and, you know, I texted her maybe like four days went past, I don't think any more than that. And then I sent her a very wordy text message, and I just put in the message that, you know, um, first of all, I had a great time, but there was, but there was something that I felt that was missing in terms of what she felt safe with and, and about me that she was– obviously, she didn't know, uh, that she could keep her feelings safe with me. And so I just expressed to her that whatever she's feeling, she could express that to me. And right away, she, she responded right away.

Niecy: And it was crazy also because, um, I didn't know that– where she was in her life. I mean, I knew that her relationship had come to an end, but I didn't know that our connection was the thing that made her know within herself that she could love again, you know. You know how sometimes after you have a breakup and you, you decide ‘this is what I'm going to do, or this is what I'm going to be moving forward,’ you know what I mean? And I think she thought on the other side of her last relationship, she was just going to be a playboy with a heart! A playboy with a heart of gold, you know what I mean? And then, and then along came this pretty spider and–

JB: That's right. I mean, uh, it's not necessarily that I was a player or anything like that. Um, it was just more so about the way that I see things, my perspective. And so, you know, when we were watching the movie and I don't know, like I've only felt this way once, maybe twice in my life, in my entire life, where I'm getting butterflies, you know, my palms are sweaty, you know what I mean? And now I'm, I'm a little uncomfortable because, you know, I'm like, okay, that's the feeling I felt years and many, many years ago. I was like, wow, this is, this is that.

Niecy: This whole experience, this whole relationship has been really the first time in my life that I’ve felt fully seen. You know, I've, I've been in situations before where people, you know, they, they will, they want to take the meat and leave the bones. I like this, I like this, I like this about you. That, and if you could change that and improve that, or be better with that, or be less of that, or don't lead so much with the thing, you know, um, it’s always been, I've always been loved with conditions. And so I found myself in a situation where I was able to show all my sides, all my parts, you know, the shiny parts, as well as the bullet holes and the stab wounds and the trauma and all of those things. And she still said to me, ‘I see you, and come on.’

Coming up… Niecy and Jessica learn to live together as a couple and take their love story public.

Niecy: Well nothing was going to be as, uh, dramatic as posting our wedding photo. You know what I mean? That was the thing that broke the internet and went around the world three times.

Anna: That was quite a, quite a move!

The Supreme Court decision in Dobbs vs. Jackson last week overturned Roe vs. Wade, and ended the constitutional right to abortion after 49 years in the United States.

While the leaked draft a few weeks ago suggested this decision was likely, we know that the reality of this final decision is settling in for people in a variety of ways.

And in recent weeks, we’ve heard from quite a few of you about what you’ve been reconsidering ahead of this decision, like from a listener named Megan in Oklahoma:

Megan: The state legislature here in Oklahoma has already passed laws that will eliminate so much reproductive care, including abortions. But there's also been talk about those laws affecting other forms of preventative birth control. So although I have another two years left for, um, my IUD, to be effective, I opted to go ahead and have that IUD removed and replaced now, literally yesterday

Another listener, Emily, is 20 and lives in Arkansas, where a trigger law made abortions illegal last week. She’s currently in college, and says the thought of losing access to abortion where she lives..makes her afraid. 

Emily: I can barely afford to live as it is. I mean, the last thing that I wanna do is give birth at 20 years old and have to live in poverty. I mean, I'll have to drop outta college or something. And I feel like it's all on me. I have to take my birth control on time, you know? My partner will be there, yes, but my family and the more conservative people in my community, they're not gonna ask him why he didn't do anything. They're gonna blame me. They're gonna ask me, what's wrong– Why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? And to be completely honest, I'm doing pretty much everything I can.

We still want to hear from you about how you’re reacting to this news. What changes are you thinking of making? For your reproductive health care, or how you talk about pregnancy with partners, maybe even where you’ll live? Send us an email or voice memo to deathsexmoney@wnyc.org.

This is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. I’m Anna Sale.

Niecy Nash and Jessica Betts became a couple in February 2020, the same month Niecy turned 50. Jessica was 37. And then, the world shut down because of the pandemic. So the first phase of their relationship was very private… until they posted a picture of their backyard wedding on Instagram in August of 2020.

Niecy: No one saw it coming. Uh, no one had ever seen me date a woman. No one even knew I was in a relationship, you know, except my fab five.

Anna: Who's your fab five?

Niecy: Um, my immediate family, which is my sister, my children, my mother, and then my other fingers would go to Sherri Shepherd, Ava DuVernay, um, Oprah Winfrey. And, uh, I feel like I'm forgetting somebody.

Anna: Well, even with four that's like the fabbest four I've ever heard Niecy. And JB, what was that like for you to feel all of a sudden sort of like, oh, everybody's trying to find out who I am and where I came from?

JB: Uh, it was kinda crazy. Okay because, uh, when we posted the, the photo from the marriage, it wasn't strategic in a way where we felt like it was going to break the internet. It was more strategic like us holding each other's hands and just jumping off of a cliff and, you know, and vowing to love each other and stay with each other, regardless to what happens and what comes from us showing and expressing our love. And I mean, you know, just to, to reel it all in and to, to finalize the answer to the question, I mean. I didn't realize my wife was such a big thing, you know? My wife's a big deal, you know what I mean?

Niecy: I’m a big deal, you know, bada bing bada boom!

JB: So, you know, press and media and you know, all of that. That's cool. And that's one thing, but the authenticity of the relationship is what I hold dear, because it's, that is what keeps me flatfooted and grounded and staying over here, none of the limelight, because that's going to come and go.

Anna: I, I do wonder. You all were grown people when you found each other and fell in love and, and once you fall in love and decide to be with somebody and marry them and live together, learning how to share space and live with one another is a whole other process. Like what, was there anything that when you were sort of, um, integrating your lives and your habits with one another that you realized, oh, this, this is going to take some adjusting, as you got to know what it was like to be together as a couple?

Niecy: Well for me, I would say no, because I've been married my whole life. I've been married longer than I haven't. You know what I mean? I was married for the f— I met my first husband when I was 18. I was married for 17 years in that marriage. My next marriage was a total of 10 years. And so I was used to sharing space. What I wasn't used to was living alone, you know, and I thought I was going to live alone for the first time in my life. And I was like, Ooh, this is going to be different. What's a bachelorette pad like? And I wasn't single five minutes. Let me tell you something. I'm a marryin’ woman. I got the marry Juju on me. I can't stay single. They ain't going to let me stay single in these streets. And so getting married and sharing space, I welcomed it. Because it's what I know more than anything, you know. And I went to Jessica's bachelor pad in New Jersey and I was like, oh, this is cute! And, uh, but right before, you know, when there was rumblings that the world was going to be shut down and we had said, you know, hey, we had just became a committed, um, in a relationship, dating on Valentine's day. And you know, the world shut down in, in March. But when we heard those rumors, I was like, wait a minute. There is no way that– I don't even know how long this lockdown is going to be or what is going to happen, but I know I don't want to be in it without you and I went to New Jersey and we packed up that apartment in one day.

JB: Two days, it took a couple days.

Niecy: No, no, no. Remember we were going to be there three days. We packed it up one day and left the next day. You don't remember that?

JB: Yeah, just my little knapsack. 

Niecy: I say, we don't, we don't need none of this stuff, come on.

JB: She pretty much made me throw everything away.

Niecy: Right, And I mean, and now you talk about having a strong constitution. When you start cleaning up somebody's house to move, you find all kind of things?

Anna: Oh, yeah.

Niecy: And I’m like, who is this girl? You know what I mean? What girl left this over here? What is this? Throw it away! Throw it away!

JB:  And first of all, my wife's house was already fully furnished and she already had her, you know, she already had her comfort zone in the home. So, uh, there was nothing, there was no space for my stuff, except like my clothes and stuff. So I had to just, just gotta toss it.

Niecy: Well, no, not, I'm gonna say that’s not true–

JB: I had an amazing bed that I had to throw away, oh God. My best bed. 

Niecy: First of all– anyway, I'm going to say that that is not true because I was living in a house. It did not become a home until you got here. 

JB: Aw, baby, that’s–

Niecy: No, that's the truth. Now, I'm, uh, I'm going to tell the truth and shame the devil. This place did not become a home until you got here. And we nested in it together. Because I bought a house, but then I had never lived 30 days straight in it because I was always working out of town. So when we got here, we were able to curate a music room for Jessica. She was able to find things around the house that I didn't even know I had. Who knew the pool had waterfalls? How did you find that button? So we literally fell in love and, and discovered this home together during COVID. 

Anna: And, and JB with where you were in your life, was this like nesting, was this something that you had felt independently that you were sort of craving to kind of build a home with someone? Or was this kind of, wow, now I'm doing this?

JB: It was, yeah, wow, now I'm doing this. Yes. Yes so I, I mean, you know, as she said, you know, uh, I had got accustomed, you know, to just kind of like living alone, you know. I lived alone for years. So yeah, I mean, you know, when I got here, you know, it was a minor adjustments, you know, my, my wife doesn't like using the same bathroom. So, you know, you know, those are things that we could do to kind of, she said, keep the relationship strong. We don't use the same restroom and stuff like that.

Anna: Oh.

Niecy: You know, that's how you have a– that's how you have a good long marriage, have your own bathroom. 

Anna: I like that, I like that.

Niecy: Even when we travel, even when we travel, we will not stay anywhere unless we have at least two bathrooms.

JB: I think it's absurd, but whatever, it is what it is, you know, I, I'll go find another bathroom.

Anna: Do you ever feel the difference in your age?

Niecy: In our age?

Anna: Mmhmm.

JB: Uh, sometimes.

Niecy: You do?

JB: Sometimes. Yeah.

Niecy: When?

JB: Well, you know, like at nine o'clock, my wife is like, it's time for bed. I'm like, wait, what?

Niecy: Now that's not, hey, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. That is not, hey–

JB: I’m like, I'm not ready to go to sleep yet. 

Niecy: No, let me tell you something. But I'm also the same person who eyes open at six AM, five and six o’clock in the morning, I’m up. So I I like to get up early and seize the day. I mean, you know, that's not age, that's preference.

JB: Well, you know my wife, she, she, she has a very youthful spirit and she's so much fun. She is so full of fucking life. You know what I'm saying? So. So, you know, the, I guess the gap comes in, like on, like I said, for me, it's like, you know, I'll be in the car and I want to listen to, you know, uh, Lil Nas or Lil Wayne, and she's like, yo, you– turn on the station. Turn on the, turn on the, um, what are you, what's your station?

Niecy: I like Anita Baker and Luther Vandross and Adele.

JB: You know what I mean?

Niecy: But that's not age. That's just music preference.

JB: It's okay, baby. It's okay.

Niecy: Oh my God. Okay. Get away.

Anna: JB, do you think of yourself as a step-parent? What's your relationship to Niecy’s children?

JB: Uh, a step parent. I mean, I guess so. I mean, I guess so, you know what I mean? The relationship with the kids are all cool. You know, all her children are grown, uh, but I do have my, individual relationships with all three of them, you know. We've all had our, um, our own time. Her son is very fun and outgoing guy, cool and hip, you know what I mean? So I like him a lot. He has a great smile. Her middle child, Donielle, she's very smart and talented. She's somewhat, somewhat like her mom when it comes down to like the arts, you know, she like to act and stuff like that. And, uh, she's a very loving girl. And the baby, of course, it's like copy and paste on this one. You know what I'm saying? She was just here, what, yesterday?

Niecy: Oh yeah, the baby, the little one is funny because she, she will never miss a moment to, to, to rag on us about anything. What up, moms? What are you guys over there doing, having hot lesbian sex?

Anna: What do you say? Yes.

Niecy: So what do you want and why are you disturbing it? I will tell you this, she's also a musician, and one of my greatest joys is when it just so happens sometimes they're upstairs together, Jessica and my youngest Dia, making music. And I can hear them both at the same time. It just makes my heart full.

Anna: Oh, that's nice. Do you, do you play together? Do you sing together? What do you usually do when you're jamming?

JB: Um, I play, I play and sing, but normally for her I'm like her engineer, you know, I become her engineer. I navigate her sessions so that she can sing, record her sessions and send them off to mix.

Anna: Oh, that's cool. That's so cool. Um, I want to ask you all about faith. Uh, cause you both mentioned, have mentioned prayer. Um, Niecy, you were once a pastor's wife. I understand JB that you grew up in the church. Um, how do you think about, how, how big a part is spirituality in your relationship?

Niecy: I think the fact that I am a woman of faith and a praying woman is how I got the gig as JB’s wife. I think it was the missing ingredient to a lot of her past relationships. Um, and– what?

JB: You gonna tell me what's the missing ingredient?

Niecy: I’m gonna tell you! Because you was dating heathens! I’m gonna say it, I don’t have no secrets. We all family right now!

JB: My wife knows best, right? 

Niecy: Okay, were you, were you in a relationship with a woman of faith?

JB: Carry on now, you were right, I wasn’t, I wasn’t–

Niecy: With a woman who could you pray out of a situation, huh? With a woman who knew God, did you? No you wasn't. So there. But, you know, I say that to say that no, in all seriousness, it is very, very important. Um, we are definitely a praying family. We definitely have a high regard for, um, we're not religious, but we are spiritual, I would say.

JB: Absolutely. Religious is not the thing. It's very spiritual. Um, and so my faith comes from, uh, believing in God and unlearning the things that I've learned as a child growing up because I was religiously, strictly, religiously raised, and I had to unlearn a lot of that stuff.

Anna: What, what, can you tell me more specifically what you feel like you've had to leave behind, um, when you identified as religious, you no longer do, but why, why not?

JB: Well, well, because there's a difference between religion and then spirituality. Uh, and you have to leave religion behind, you know, and–

Niecy: That come with a lot of rules. 

JB: Yeah, it comes with a lot of rules. A lot of man-made rules, a lot of personal man-made rules.

Niecy: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!

JB: So my spirituality, uh, comes from having my own relationship with God. And I think that encompasses being a good person, you know, being respectful, you know, being kind, you know, all of those things are godly. Those are the things that I, um, that I hold faith in and stay true to in terms of my faith.

Anna: So, you don't currently have a church community? Is that right?

Niecy: Well, we haven't been going to church. It was in COVID and now since some of these, the restrictions have been lifted, we still haven't found a church home.

JB: No. No, we'll create one though.

Before we wrapped up, I asked them about their upcoming projects. Niecy has a new movie out on Netflix called Beauty, and this fall, she’ll be the lead on a spinoff of the ABC show The Rookie, called The Rookie: Feds. 

JB appears in the latest season of P Valley on Starz, which is a fantastic show about a strip club in Mississippi, and she’s making new music. 

JB: I have a single that I, uh, released, uh, May 9th, uh, titled We Drip, which was inspired by my wife, which was initially a love letter that turned into a song.

Anna: Um, when you say We Drip was inspired by your wife, will you tell us a few words of it? What, what are the words that you think of when you think of why Niecy in that song?

JB: Well, studying your lashes, kiss the curve above your lips. Get undressed. I intend to know you like the surface of your skin. We caress. Come near, intertwine. We’re figures in the moonlight, loving this view. Soft hips, that dip. I suppose, you know, doing this, we drip.

Anna: Woah. Niecy, I get it.

Niecy: Let me tell you something, every time she sings a note my clothes fall off. What can I do? What do you want from me? What do you want from me?

That’s Niecy Nash and Jessica Betts at home in Los Angeles. 

You can check out their new, very cute clothing line at thebettsofbothworlds.com – get it? 

We also put a link to our first interview with Niecy Nash from 2017 in the show notes – it was a show in LA that also featured Alia Shawkat and Terry Coleman – a great night. And I also interviewed Niecy for Fresh Air back in 2015 when she was starring in the HBO show Getting On, which is STILL one of my all-time favorite shows. Check out a link to that too. 

Death, Sex & Money is a listener-supported production of WNYC Studios in New York. This episode was produced by Afi Yellow-Duke. The rest of the team is Julia Furlan, Zoe Azulay, Emily Botein, and Andrew Dunn. Our intern is Lilly Clark. Special thanks to Casey Deal for her help with this episode.

The Reverend John Delore and Steve Lewis wrote our theme music. 

I’m on Instagram @annasalepics, P-I-C-S, and the show is @deathsexmoney on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Thank you to Christine Kemp in Amherst, New York for being a member of Death, Sex & Money and supporting us with a monthly donation. You can join Christine and support what we do here by going to deathsexmoney.org/donate.

Now, Niecy and JB did tell me about one place their age difference shows up in their relationship… 

JB: I always tell my wife. I say, you know, I'm going to be going to Walgreens for you soon. I'm going to get your ointment, your ointment drawer ready.

Niecy: And you know, what's funny about that. Okay. Fast forward to– they played basketball in the backyard, right? This one, you know, ‘I was a athlete back in my day!’ Got out there, crossed all the kids over, came in here. Knees look like grapefruits. I'm like where the ointment at? Who need the ointment? Not me! Who needs ointment?

JB: That is true. That is true. My body is not the way that it used to be 20 years ago.

Anna: Welcome to the age of ointment!

I’m Anna Sale and this is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC.