This is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. I’m Anna Sale.

And this week, I want to share something with you that our colleagues over at Radiolab have made for kids. 

[MUSIC]

It’s a podcast series called Terrestrials and it’s all about finding wonder, comfort, and rebelliousness in nature. 

We’re going to share a little bit of one of my favorite episodes of Terrestrials and a conversation I had with Lulu Miller, the co-host of Radiolab, who led its creation. 

When we talked, she told me the podcast comes from a very personal place for her. She’s a new-ish parent herself, her kids are four and one and a half. And during the first phases of the pandemic, when the world seemed to be breaking down, Lulu found herself looking to nature for answers.  

She was surprised, though, that this led her to make a show for kids because she told me before having them herself she really felt like she didn’t get them. 

Lulu Miller: I was the youngest in my whole extended family, I did not babysit, like I did not know what kids were, I was really creeped out and intimidated by kids. Um, so I had massive questions on if I would know what I was doing, if I would like it, uh, if I could do it like, big, big, like "what's a kid?" Questions

Anna Sale: Were you someone who always knew you wanted to be a parent?

Lulu Miller: I did. Yeah. There were certainly times where I thought maybe it wasn't gonna happen because, um, you know, I was, like, single in my thirties and then fell in love with a woman. And like, I think I always knew I wanted to, and there were moments where I was like, oh, is this not gonna happen? And then it did happen.

Anna Sale: And like, what, what, did you notice how like parenting and parenting specifically during a pandemic, like did you notice it, um, change your creative appetites in your work?

Lulu Miller: Hugely. Yeah, I think it's been the biggest creative shift in my life. I think, um, I think I went into it… I had kids somewhat late: I was 36 once I got pregnant. And, and I, so I think I went into it with like, the lowest, lowest, lowest of low expectations.

I think I had a worst case scenario in my head of like, I'll never have time to do work and I won't want to, and I'll be too scattered and worried and parasitized–my brain will be parasitized–and, and I'll be a zombie and I won't be able to work.

Um, and I think part of me waited, in part just cuz of the life journey I took, but I think wanted to just be okay if I like never did anything creative again, which is, which I think now I see is like this cultural message we get that's really toxic. And in certain ways it is realistic. There is a big change, and I think what happened was just watching our first son wake into the world, have questions, mix up names, misidentify things, play with language, and so seeing the potential in their, their minds and how much  they love a good story, they like some fear, they like real humor… I just think of them as these like psychedelic beings that I want to entertain and I wanna inhabit their brain a little bit more too.  And, that was my big change: I kind of thought kids had a really patronizing view of them, like, you gotta use dumb, simple words and keep it real easy and safe. And actually living intimately in a household with two of them, it's like, no, they're drawn to fear, they're drawn to questions, they're drawn, they're drawn to the hard stuff and real humor. And, and so I think suddenly living with them and liking them made me get actually hungry about creating work for them.

Anna Sale: Oh, that's, so it's, it's interesting that the great fear before becoming a parent– you used the word parasitic–like you thought it was gonna, like being, becoming a parent would like suck away your productivity, and then now you describe this like pull, to like inhabit their tiny brains like parasite on their wonder. [LAUGHS]

Lulu Miller: I am. Oh, I am, I'm the worst, parasiting their wonder… I mean, literally.  I will give him credit: My older kid, one day my wife, like two years ago, my wife was like, who's your favorite? I don't know why she said this. I think she was fishing. She was like, who's your favorite person in the world? And he paused, and he's very, he is very into trucks, trucks are his thing. Um, and he just pauses and he goes, “truckie roads.” And we were like, what? Like who's Truckie Roads? Is he a character? We looked him up. He's not. So he like invented Truckie Roads who then became this like character in our lives and now I pitched as a children's book that is coming out

Anna Sale: Wait, are you serious?

Lulu Miller: Yes, hundred percent.

Anna Sale: It’s coming out? You're manifesting Truckie Roads?

Lulu Miller: Like I, I wrote a book for him for Christmas, like, cause I wanted to bring Truckie Roads to life, and he is just like a super generic construction dude, and he sees different kinds of trucks. Anyway, I wrote the book just out of fun to like, entertain my kid and make Truckie Roads real.

And then I was like, this is half decent. And then we, and I pitched it, but like he invented that. I'm just like, yeah, I'm ripping them off. I'm just parasiting off their, you know, yeah, what they see, what they wanna see, their ideas. Like I'm, yes, I am the parasite and they're parasitic too. 

Anna Sale: And as you started thinking about like what you wanted to make in your work

Lulu Miller: Yeah.

Anna: And you're thinking about those ideas, you're watching, you're watching this happen in your home with your children, um, how did you come to think like, I wanna make something for young listeners? I wanna make something for young ears that's gonna help them experience this universe, experience, experience this universe? Like where, where did that come from?

Lulu Miller: It was like February and it, we were in the heart of the pandemic and I was starved, like I was starved for nature. Like I just wanted to look, I wanted to fill my ears with leaves and animals and I wanted to look there, but I also knew that doing that in a time of like pandemic, social unrest, like so much going on, almost felt irresponsible as an adult journalist to just go tell stories about flowers, you know? [LAUGHS]

Um, and, and then I suddenly thought like a comment we get time and time again at Radiolab is like, more wonder, more science. Oh, I really loved this. You know, can you make a feed that's just for kids where you're not gonna accidentally hear something really tough? And so I knew that there was the hunger there. Like we, Radiolab had made a Radiolab for kids feed at the beginning of the pandemic because parents were asking for stuff to listen to. And so there was hunger. And then I kind of just thought like, what would it sound like to make something for kids? And, and try to not do it in a patronizing way, but just do it in a way that's like, I'm your camp counselor, wanna hang out with me? Yeah.

Anna Sale: That's so, well, you know what that makes me think about Lulu is it makes me think about how, like, I don't know if this is actually true, but I, I do notice that since I've become a parent, I take in a lot more media about nature. Like, that's what children's books are about–like animals, nature, like look at this world around us.

Lulu Miller: Yeah, yeah.

Anna Sale: So it's interesting that you felt the nature pull first and then you were like, kids can be my excuse. [LAUGHS]

Lulu Miller: I mean, that is the truth. Like that is the truth. Like I was hungry, I was starved in, in, in ways sort of literal and spiritual. 

Anna Sale: Yeah, and I, so as you like, when you finally gave yourself permission to fully be the like camp counselor guide, um, on these episodes and make this thing, when you were picturing who was listening to you, who did you picture?

Lulu Miller: I think in a weird way, like myself as a 10 year old, um, who was like outwardly very chipper and trying to delight everyone around her, but inwardly very, like, really struggling and, and struggling in particular with the sense that our world is known and flat and humans are cruel and there's just, there's gravity and you can't escape and there's no magic, and so I think in a certain way it's like that grumpy, sad kid who's convinced this place sucks trying to be like, "It doesn't entirely."

If you look close, if you keep asking questions, you might see that we don't have it all figured out. And, and I don't know, that for me has always to this day creates a feeling of possibility that like, is very crucial to me to, to, to feeling okay. So I think it's kind of trying to cheer up that little kid who's like, not trying to look kiddy, but might appreciate it in their room by themselves or on a walk, um, out in the world with some headphones, like really not telling anyone else they're listening, but listening, grateful for it.

Anna Sale: And maybe this, it seems like the logic of this is very clear to you, but it, to me, it's sort of, it's very interesting: Like the idea that there are exceptions to the rules is something that is relieving and like,

Lulu Miller: Hugely.

Anna Sale: And why is that? Why are the rules, to young you and to current you, feel bleak?

Lulu Miller: This was kind of the upbringing I had with the scientist's father and what I actually do believe, uh, today, but it's just like, there's no, there's just your time on earth. It's all random.There isn't inherently meaning. There's just the meaning maybe you make, but that's ultimately constructed. Life is random. We're all gonna die. Humans, like all animals, are inherently wired to be greedy and like, I don't know, there's just a bleak, there's like a pointlessness if you look at tit.

Anna Sale: Nihilism. Yeah.

Lulu Miller: And yeah, nihilism, totally, um, which of course, like when you're fed right, and rested and, and grow up with a backbone and some confidence, nihilism can be amazing: Carpe diem! Seize the day! Like everything, you know, every, nothing means anything. Go dance, right?  Like, whatever. But, but when you're struggling, when you're sunk in, when you're not sure of yourself or your chances, or like when you see people being horrifically cruel to people you love or to yourself, like it is, you know, we all know it can be brutal when you're, the nihilism thing can be hard on a hard day.

Um, And it could be a reason not to go on, like literally, it's just like, okay, well if nothing matters and I happen to be inhabiting a body and a brain that makes life hurt a lot, like why be here? You know? And that's fair and that's valid. And, and I think for me, seeing moments where like the world doesn't behave in the way you thought it did actually shows, not so much that there are exceptions, but it's just like these reminders that we actually don't know the rules. I think for me, seeing moments where the world doesn't behave in the way you thought it did actually shows that we actually don't know the rules.

We do an episode about a mule having a baby,

[MUSIC]

which, you know, mules are supposed to be sterile. That's like the, the whole thing. That's the whole, one of the most primal, fundamental laws of nature is like a mule is a product of a donkey and a horse, two different species but then nature has barriers in place that will not allow it to carry on. But then every now and then there's a mule that has a baby and like we went and met that baby. That’s not supposed to happen.

After the break…an excerpt of one of my favorite episodes of Terrestrials…about surfing. 

<break> 

This is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. I’m Anna Sale. 

Terrestrials is a new series for kids from our colleagues over at Radiolab. And one episode I really loved…introduced me to AJ Dungo, a graphic novelist and SURFER. 

Lulu Miller: Did you grow up loving the water?

AJ Dungo: No. No, no, not at all. I was terrified. I would just sort of sink. The feeling of starting to swallow water and trying to open your eyes in chlorinated water, and it just burns. It wasn't fun to get out of your comfort zone.

Lulu Miller: I mean, how did you finally get past that?

AJ Dungo: That would be my late partner, Kristen.

Lulu Miller: "Late" meaning she got sick and passed away.

AJ Dungo:  We were high school sweethearts. And she was this fearless, confident, beautiful surfer.

Lulu Miller:  And she didn't stop surfing, even after she had a surgery that made her lose her leg.

AJ Dungo: I think it was seeing her pick up a board and go out and charge with a smile on her face, and ruin her prosthetic leg in the process. I was like, "Man!" When you're in the presence of someone like that you want to impress them, obviously.

Lulu Miller: So he finally put his fear of water aside, hopped onto a surfboard and wobbly tried to stand so that Kristen would think he was cool.

AJ Dungo: Yeah! [laughs]

Anna Sale: …So….we learn how surfing became something AJ could do…to connect with his grief and memories of Kristen… and because Lulu is telling this story, we also learn about the history of surfing in nineteenth century Hawaii…and how it works…when standing on water…seems to break all rules. Here’s a little more of that episode. 

Lulu Miller:  Okay. And now I'm gonna turn to my scary page in my notebook where I've been scribbling things, um, about the physics of surfing. 

AJ Dungo: Mm-hmm. 

Lulu Miller:  And trying to understand what's, what's going on that allows humans to stand on water. Do you have any understanding of how the heck it is possible scientifically, how it works?

AJ Dungo:  There's a few important things to have a rideable wave. The first thing would be swell. 

Lulu Miller:  Swell! AJ explains, there are so many factors at play. The swell of the wave, the speed of the wave, the slope of the ocean floor, the size of your surfboard, 

AJ Dungo: your height, your weight, your body type, 

Lulu Miller:  how gravity is pushing down and buoyancy is pushing up and thrust is pushing forward and drag is going back.

AJ Dungo:  Another factor is wind. So if there's wind blowing out to sea, that's the sort of condition that you really hope for. 

Lulu Miller:  That's weird, wouldn’t wind coming from the sand slow the wave down and, and, and kill its mojo?

AJ Dungo:  Well, that's kind of like what you want because if you have entre winds, which is the wind blowing towards you, there's nothing to hold up the water to make it into that perfect curl that that crest.

Lulu Miller:   And if you zoom into that crest, this is where things get really wild because, it turns out, in a wave most of the water particles aren't really moving that much. 

AJ Dungo:  The particles in the water are kind of staying in place, and this mysterious orb of energy is just passing through. 

Lulu Miller:  Hmm. 

AJ Dungo: Making it seem like it's undulating, 

Lulu Miller:  Except AJ explains at the crest, 

AJ Dungo: The little white part that you see, that's where the water particles are undergoing their greatest acceleration, and that makes them faster than the underlying wave, so they're shooting, like they're flying off the top of the wave before falling under gravity's influence. 

Lulu Miller:  So they just get like a momentary break from gravity? 

AJ Dungo: Yeah. They, they're sort of in their own moment.

Lulu Miller:  That is thrilling to think that for a moment, that tip of the water, the crest, the white part where it's breaking, here is an escape, not just in a spiritual way, not just in an emotional way, but like physically. 

AJ Dungo:  Yeah, you can see it like you can visually see them rushing ahead of the rest of the wave.

Anna Sale: That’s AJ Dungo talking to Radiolab’s Lulu Miller, from the episode of Terrestrials called, “The Water Walker.” 

You can find the whole series in the podcast feed called Radiolab for Kids…and there’s a link in our show notes. Give it a listen…I think you’ll like it…whether you’re a kid or not. 

Tracie Hunte produced this episode. I’m Anna Sale and this is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC.