JASON ISBELL: Three things my wife hates, uh, as you know, 

WILL WELCH: Me.

JI: Yeah. You.

WW: Yeah.

JI: Uh, your stupid face.

WW: Yep. That's two.

JI: I can't remember what the third one was.

WW: Um -

JI: Me wearing cowboy boots was pretty bad.

This is Death, Sex & Money.

WW: Well I would prefer not to talk public publicly about any of those three things.

JI: Yeah!

WW: So why don't we go do all three.

The show from WNYC about the things we think about a lot…

...and need to talk about more.

I'm Jason Isbell, in for Anna Sale. And today, I'm talking with my best friend, Will Welch, who also happens to be the editor-in-chief of GQ Magazine.

WW: One thing that is funny that we do encounter is people think it's weird that we're friends.

JI: That's true.

WW: It's partially chalked up to like what people perceive as like, you know, a Nashville -

JI: Man who used to be -

WW: folk Americana singer-songwriter,

JI: Yeah.

WW: and a guy who is like the editor-in-chief of the place with the fancy suits and the shiny shoes.

Will recently became GQ's top editor, after years of working his way up the ladder. But when Will and I first met, he was just getting his start in the magazine world, and I was finding my footing in the music world, too. He wrote a profile about a band I used to be in, The Drive By Truckers. 

WW: So, it was 2004, I believe, and we were in Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

JI: That was probably the lowest point of my life, um because I was in the middle of, uh, separating, getting a divorce, um, working uh in a creative environment that was stifling, difficult, contentious for me, you know.

WW: Yep.

JI: Due in no small part to my own behavior, um as as problems usually are for me, uh -

WW: I certainly did not know when I met you that I was dealing with a man at the bottom.

JI: Oh good.

WW: Well I don't know that you necessarily knew that either, obviously.

JI: Yeah, not at that point.

WW: Um, but, uh, I specifically remember we went to a meat and three -

JI: Hollywood Inn.

WW: Hollywood Inn.

JI: Hollywood Inn Soul Food across the street from Bunyan's Barbecue.

WW: The reason I did not know that you were at the bottom is because you did not have dessert.

JI: [Laughs] I didn't.

WW: I was like, this, this is a man on a diet. He's not at the bottom, he's saying no to this peach cobbler that looks so good. I was like, this is a man on the rise!

JI: You know you were there with Danny Clinch, photographer.

WW: Yup.

JI: And if Danny's around, I don't get dessert because I'm, in in the back of my mind -

WW: (Laughs) You're like, I need to have my photo taken.

JI: Yeah. This is gonna make a huge difference in the photo.

WW: Yeah.

JI: The the the six ounces of peach cobbler that I may or may not eat today are going to make the photo good or bad. You know?

WW: Yeah. Suddenly these pants are gonna fit.

JI: Yeah. It's not the last eight years of drinking. It's the, it's the peach cobbler. Since then, I mean, it's been pretty much constant contact.

WW: Yeah, pretty much daily. Part of me suspects that um the the long distance nature of our friendship is uh appealing to you on some level.

JI: Um -

WW: You're just not a guy that likes a lot of people in his face all the time.

JI: Yeah, it's true. It's true and -

WW: Just like as a blanket statement, not because you're, you know, a well known rock and roller or for any other reasons, it's just like the nature of your personality.

JI: It's true. My my my therapist tells me that I am, uh, an introvert, but I have been forced to uh portray something different.

WW: An introvert with extrovertic tendencies.

JI: Yeah.

WW: Yeah.

JI: Yeah. Um, and that may be true -

WW: I mean you like having your wife and your, and your baby girl, Mercy Rose Isbell, in your face, but otherwise -

JI: Yeah. And you know, I need, I need time away from them too. 

WW: Yeah.

JI: And they would they would tell you the same thing, you know. Um, all the relationships that I've had that have worked on the long term,

WW: Yeah.

JI: have been relationships that you know had periods of, of not constant contact.

WW: Right.

JI: Or, or, you know, not being around that person all the time.

WW: Yeah.

JI: Um, uh so what do you think the longest we've gone without speaking to each other would be?

WW: Couple weeks?

JI: Yeah, probably when I was in rehab.

WW: Yup.

JI: I think that was it because I didn't talk to anybody. Seven years today I went in and and -

WW: Hey.

JI: I have been sober seven years today. So there we go.

WW: Where's the tattoo parlor?

JI: I know. Let's go.

WW: Jason has - can I speak on your tattoos?

JI: Yes. Yes, please do.

WW: Jason has notches for his sobriety years.

JI: Yeah.

WW: And um, so another notch is due.

JI: We need another.

WW: I believe them to be on your right forearm, but I could be wrong.

JI: They are. Yeah, they're on my right forearm.

WW: See?

JI: I started down by my wrist, so hopefully I'll go all the way. If I get -

WW: If it wraps around your shoulders and goes down your left forearm, then you know -

JI: Then I'm getting drunk. Yeah, they're small. So if it gets,

WW: Yeah.

JI: if it gets to my like armpit, then that means I'm about 112 and I'm getting hammered.

WW: I should say I have, I have uh five years, but no notches.

JI: Yeah. You, you have, you have mental notches though.

WW: Yeah.

JI: And, and you, uh, getting sober was a big deal for me.

WW: Yeah.

JI: It was a really big deal for me.

WW: Yeah.

JI: Um, obviously it was a huge deal for you and for everybody else in your life, but it was,

WW: Stratosphere. Yeah.

JI: it was like the first time in my sobriety that I felt like, oh shit, somebody, somebody needs me and I can help.

WW: Yeah. Well I have very specific, uh, memories of uh exiting my, you know, walking out of the building where I worked at the time. It was in Times Square and I was standing on 43rd Street and I was like, I don't know man, this isn't working, this is really not working. And um, you kind of walked me through some options, but what was nice about it is you weren't offering, I wouldn't even say you were offering advice. It was just kinda like, well, let me tell you my experience. Uh I obviously knew your experience but you sort of walked me through some aspects of it that might apply. Um, and then I had a totally different approach but felt completely backed up -

JI: Yeah.

WW: - and you know, knew that I could and often did call you to to talk about it or text you about it or whatever.

JI: Yeah. And it's always like, like I never feel more confident in the stability of my sobriety then when I'm talking to somebody else about it. And it doesn't have to be, it can be me saying I need help or somebody else saying I need help or you know, uh every time it's like you get another power up,

WW: Yeah.

JI: you know, when you just get it outside in the room.

WW: Well, what I value about those conversations uh over the years, um, is that they very rarely, uh, they're kind of like rooted on a foundation of sobriety. But basically have nothing to do with using drugs or alcohol or any of it. So it - it - it immediately becomes a conversation that is much more about, um, what's going on with us emotionally, how we're connecting with people or not, what's going on in our respective marriages and it all feels like in a way we're talking about sobriety, but we're actually never talking about like drinking. We're not like, "Man I'm really white knuckling it right now."

JI: Yeah.

WW: "There's mini bar in this hotel room!"

JI: Yeah. "Tell me it tastes bad, man. Tell me it tastes bad."

WW: (Laughs) Um.

JI: But yeah, it's like - it's like - it's like a song. Like somebody asked me you know, what's the song about? And, it's about everything. It's about writing a song.

WW: Yeah.

JI: It's about being a person.

WW: Yeah yeah yeah.

JI: It's just all about being a person and sobriety is to me about being a person,

WW: Yes.

JI: and growing up and becoming more adult and and more aware.

WW: Yeah.

JI: And you know that awareness, I think, is the is the trick to almost everything for me. Because when you're aware, you're, you look around and you're like, man, I've got it really well.

WW: Yeah.

JI: Let's count the things that are going right. And sometimes we do that. Sometimes we just talk and we count the things that are going right,

WW: Yeah.

JI: in a roundabout way.

WW: And, and you know and sometimes what's going right, um, uh, especially we're, or, you know, both in our - well, I was about to say we're both in our thirties.

JI: Uh huh. We're not though, are we.

WW: We're not.

JI: Thanks brother. Thanks.

WW: Jason's newly 40.

JI: Newly 40.

WW: I'm I'm deeply into my thirties, um, but you know, we've both been working our, working really hard and having some success and sometimes it's really, there's nobody to talk to about like aspects of success that,

JI: Yeah.

WW: where you don't feel like completely embarrassed and like um -

JI: Very often, there's no right answer to "How are you doing?" You know, if you go back home and somebody's like, "Man how have you been?" There's no,

WW: But -

JI: there's no right ans-, you need somebody who knows you and somebody who is -

WW: Yeah, and most people don't want to like hear about like, you know, something really exciting happened.

JI: Yeah.

WW: And I need to share about it and I could use a little bit of help like figuring out how to navigate it. But it's basically like some form of brag.

JI: It is always.

WW: You know.

JI:  And if you're complaining, they're like, "Yeah, let me tell you about my life asshole."

WW: Yeah. Exactly.

JI: You know, we got to talk about money because that is one of the words.

WW: It is.

JI: We gotta talk about death and sex and money. So let's talk about money.

WW: Alright cool.

JI: Um, this is a good introduction into this conversation. I - I just bought a guitar and I bought a guitar that's like, you know, saying "I just bought a guitar" is understatement to the point to where it almost makes me an asshole just saying "I just bought a guitar." But um, you know, it's a very famous guitar and it's - it's a 1959 Les Paul Standard sunburst guitar. It was owned by Ed King, formerly of the band, Lynyrd Skynyrd. Ed came up with the riff for "Sweet Home Alabama," and uh, he passed away last August and Sharon, his widow, brought uh a lot of his guitars in to uh Carter Vintage Guitars in Nashville, which is my local guitar store.

WW: Yes.

JI: And in Nashville, your local guitar store, you know, is - is like, I - I - I dunno, I dunno how to say it, it's just like, it's, it's, it's a dangerous, dangerous place.

WW: I was gonna say.

JI: It's dangerous. And they had this this Les Paul sitting there, and I pick it up, and I've always told myself I'm never going to own a 1959 Les Paul, uh, Sunburst -

WW: You mean because you were just trying to get used to the sound of your own voice acknowledging the fact that as much as you would like to, it's just not gonna happen.

JI: It was, yeah, it's out of my reach and it's not feasible. But I picked it up and it immediately felt and sounded different from any guitar that I have ever picked up before I plugged it into an amp or anything. And I - I became obsessed with it. Uh, so I obsessed about it, and you know, I called my accountant and she said no, of course not, that's ridiculous -

WW: "You absolutely may not -"

JI: "No, no sir you can not have that guitar."

WW: " - do the crazy thing that you're thinking." 

JI: Yeah. So I called my manager and - and I was like, we have to find a way for me to pay for this guitar without affecting the people around me, the people who work on the crew, the people in my family, you know, I can cut back however I need to for however long I have to, but this is something that's really important to me. And she said, we'll take some extra gigs, we'll make it work. And so we did. And, you know, I took it home and, and uh, it, it did a thing for me. You know, it took me to where my priorities were long ago, which is like I really love to play the guitar and, and so I - I justify it in that way. Um. 

WW: Right.

JI: But I can't completely justify it. I can't completely justify any of it. It all seems like a ridiculous privilege to me, you know, just to be able to take a taxi in New York,

WW: Right.

JI: rather than walking or rather than taking the subway or you know, and - and how do you feel about those kind of things? Because both of us are in a very, very fortunate position.

WW: So, uh, I, I basically feel as though I live extremely modestly.

JI: Yeah.

WW: I actually have a tattoo on my hand that says, "Want nothing," which did not get there by accident. Um, and I think it's also good in relationship to my job, which has heavy elements of being like about fancy things, um to just have a really careful relationship with fancy things.

JI: Uh huh.

WW: Uh, I also though, you know, fall in love with beautiful things and recently that has like moved into some, uh, I would say, you know, pretty - pretty modestly priced art and I'm always trying to feel out like how impulsive is this, you know.

JI: Yeah.

WW: And recently, you know, I often am like, this is impulsive and I'm going to ride that and it's okay. You know?

JI: Yeah. And you need it. If you're like me, the impulse is going to rear its head somewhere.

WW: Yeah.

JI: I know, I know this about myself man.

WW: Yeah.

JI: I have been, you know.

WW: So let's consciously choose the impulses that we allow to come to fruition instead of having them just leap out of us.

JI: Right.

WW: Like we both used to be outrageous risk takers of a largely unhelpful sort. 

JI: It's comparatively, it's a safe risk.

WW: Yeah. I have to say something.

JI: Yeah.

WW: So and I and I think this is like true to the way that you and I speak to each other. I have just like been noticing my experience through this entire money part of the conversation, I'm just like completely uncomfortable.

JI: Yeah, me too.

WW: Saying into a microphone that like I have been buying paintings in a very like entry-level way,

JI: Yeah.

WW: just makes me completely uncomfortable.

JI: Me too. Me too. The guitar thing. Totally. It, yeah. 

WW: So, anyway.

JI: And why? Let's figure out why that is.

WW: Um, well I think it's because we are both hyper-aware of matters of, um of matters of privilege and um, and both are people who, when we're talking, can't help but understand the way other people are hearing us.

JI: Right. 

WW: And so I'm constantly like trying to figure out how any of these personal things we might be saying sound. And I feel just uncomfortable about the way the idea of like buying an expensive guitar or an expensive painting sounds.

JI: Yeah, uh yeah. Me too. Me too, because I - I look at the guitar or I mention the guitar and I think about the kids that I grew up with that, you know, had holes in their shoes and then I think about the fact that they were doing really, really well compared to somebody else somewhere else, you know.

WW: Totally.

JI: And, and yes, it does make me feel like a real serious asshole. But at the same time when I was a kid, you know, if rockstars didn't get to have 1959 Les Pauls, you know I don't know if I would have wanted to be one.

WW: Yeah.

JI: And like watching Jimmy Page,

WW: Yeah.

JI: he had a 1959 Les Paul, you know.

WW: Yeah, and and Jimmy Page did not come on WNYC and cry about it.

JI: Hell no!

Coming up, Will and I talk about mental health, masculinity, and why Will recently went public with his cancer diagnosis.

WW: And I did think about that before I published it, you know.

JI: Yeah.

WW: Like, do - do I want people to, who Google me, "Well what's up with the editor and chief of GQ Style?" Like, well, he has one testicle.

ANABEL BACON: Earlier in this episode, you heard Jason and Will talk together about their sobriety… and about the day Will realized drinking had become a problem for him.

We’re interested in hearing your stories about drinking… and how it’s working, or not working for you. Has the way you drink changed? Has there been a particular moment that made you worried?

Record a voice memo and send it to us at death sex money at WNYC dot org. We won't share your recording or your name without getting your permission first.

And to hear more about Jason’s early days of sobriety -- listen back to the first time he was on our show, in 2014. He and his wife, musician Amanda Shires, talked about how their relationship was affected by Jason going to rehab.

AMANDA SHIRES: He was writing letters because they don’t let you talk on the phone. He said nice and sweet things, like wait to see the progress and all this kind of stuff. Drew pictures.

ANNA SALE: During that period, was it your impression that your relationship was in jeopardy?

JASON ISBELL: I knew it was in jeopardy, but I’d been after her for a long time. A long time. So as nervous as I was, and as scared as I was that she might not be there when I got out, some part of me thought it would be alright. But I didn’t know for sure.

Listen to that episode by texting “Jason” to 70101.

On the next episode: Al Letson, who hosts the podcast Reveal, talks with investigative reporter Nikole Hannah-Jones. She won a MacArthur Genius grant two years ago… and around the same time, got the name of her hometown tattooed on her wrist.

NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: I call it my, "You came from the dirt, to the dirt you can be returned" tattoo, like never start thinking too much of yourself. Like you, you can be humbled. And you know, I live in New York, I work at The New York Times. I get invited to all of these elite spaces. I know a lot of prominent folks, but those people did not contribute to making me who I am.

 

This is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. I'm Jason Isbell, in for Anna Sale, talking with my friend, Will Welch.

I met my wife, Amanda, around the time that I first met Will. Then, the same year that I married Amanda, Will married his wife, Heidi. Soon after our weddings, Amanda and I went to visit Will and Heidi at their home in New York. And at the end of the trip, I almost destroyed my friendship with Will forever.

JI: We were talking about wedding gifts and uh getting married and all all this and somebody had given us a SodaStream. And I went into a bit, which I often do, uh, to my own chagrin, later on I hate that I went into a bit, but I went into a bit about the SodaStream. And my argument was, you know, SodaStream might be healthier. It's certainly less expensive, but who cares that much about soda? And I went on for a long time because I was cracking myself up and you know, I got a couple of laughs out of everybody else.

WW: And you do this. You get rolling downhill on something and the bit, the bit grows, the bit flourishes.

JI: It does.

WW: That, and that one flourished.

JI: And it flourished and it felt good at the time. And then on the way to the airport from your apartment, I thought, dear God, Will and Heidi gave us the SodaStream. And I turned to Amanda and I said, "Did Will and Heidi give us the SodaStream?" And she said, "God, they did. They did." And both of us were like -

WW: "Turn this cab around!"

JI: Yeah, I mean we were almost in tears,

WW: Yeah yeah.

JI: like on the way, we're like, oh my God, we can't go back in person, we're going to miss the flight and we're like, we have to call. So we call, nothing ha- , you know, you guys didn't answer. You guys were, you know, having, like we had just left.

WW: Yeah yeah.

JI: Why would we be calling? Um - turns out you didn't give us the SodaStream.

WW: We did not, yeah.

JI: Uh, but we were both completely convinced that you had. Whoever did, I'm sorry. It was a great gift. It was just a bit, you know. Uh, but has there in your opinion been a time when we've been at odds or distant?

WW: No, I mean, I think there were, there were times where, you know, we weren't capable of communicating with each other in the way that we are now. And that like, um, you know, when like you were going into rehab, 

JI: Yeah.

WW: there were things that you told me after that I didn't know were going on with you.

JI: Yeah.

WW: And I felt like - like, oh man I didn't, I didn't know, you know, that's my friend. I didn't know he was struggling with that.

JI: At the time I thought that it was, you know, the bad thing to do, uh, would've been to tell you all those things

WW: Of course. Yeah.

JI: that goes on with me. But the opposite turned out to be true, so. Yeah it's been -

WW: Yeah. I have never been angry at you.

JI: I've never been angry at you either.

WW: Yeah.

JI: Not at all. Not, not even when I used to get angry at people.

WW: That's because you largely act right.

JI: Well -

WW: In regards to me anyway.

JI: At the very least I think we we understand each other's motivations. 

WW: Yeah.

JI: You know, I - the, the, the male reflection of depression, the - the grumpiness is something that will get a hold of me very quickly. You know, I, I have uh probably a shadow of depression, not, not a full on, uh you know chemical situation with it, but I fight that more frequently than I fight anything else. Because just getting sober didn't make me all of a sudden happy. Everything, the world did not change.

WW: Yeah, it doesn't fix you. Yeah.

JI: The world does not give a shit if I'm drunk or not, you know.

WW: No it does not.

JI: It does not. 

WW: There's a uh, I recently as you know, wrote a feature, I profiled for GQ Style, uh, this guy named Ram Dass, who's a uh famous psychedelic explorer and then spiritual guru. But one of the many things that has really, will be with me forever is this idea that all thoughts, words, and actions are an offering to God. So I've tried over the last year or so to make that just a constant presence in my waking life. So I'm at work and something tricky is happening and somebody comes into my office and gives me some news I don't want to hear. How do I react?

JI: Your, yeah, your reaction is, yeah.

WW: Is an offering to God. React accordingly, you know what I mean?

JI: What is a way that you would respond now uh with that type of awareness that that you wouldn't have five or six years ago?

WW: Well, in in the way that you get grumpy, I get snappy. So, um you know -

JI: We're like the seven dwarves of male depression.

WW: We are, yeah.

JI: Grumpy, snappy,

WW: Yeah.

JI: shitty.

WW: Just between the two of us, we're the

JI: Dopey.

WW: we're the seven dwarves.

JI: Self-aggrandizing. He's the worst dwarf of all.

WW: Mouth breathy. My spirit dwarf is mouth breathy. (Laughs) 

JI: (Laughs) You're too tall for your sinuses to work right. 

WW: That's true.

JI: It's not your fault dude.

WW: That is absolutely true. So, um, anyway, I fail every day at this, but essentially what I try to do in moments where I feel overwhelmed, where I feel snappy or I feel - grumpy, I don't relate to on the, on, on the same level as you. For me, it's more about this like, "Grr!," this reaction. Um, you know, you try to like take a deep breath and - and bring in generosity. You know?

JI: Yeah.

WW: And like, "I'm receiving news that I was not expecting and do not welcome. Maybe do not welcome is not the right start to receiving this news."

JI: Right.

WW: So hopefully over time I can get to a place where I no longer have to feel the snap rise,

JI: Yeah.

WW: override it, call in genero- , do all these things, but it's more of a natural way of being.

JI: Yeah. Let's - let's talk about your gig. Because it's very interesting to me, uh the job that you have uh now. You're the editor-in-chief of GQ Magazine.

WW: Yep. 

JI: Um. How do you navigate running a men's magazine right now?

WW: Well, for me, you know, it was interesting when I got the job, there were a handful of people that were like, "Congratulations, that's the best thing that's ever gonna happen to you," which I don't necessarily agree with, 

JI: Yeah.

WW: but I appreciated their sentiment.

JI: A little, little backhanded. Yeah.

WW: Yeah, and there were other people who were like, "Yikes."

JI: Yeah.

WW: "Woah. A men's magazine in 2019. Good luck with that." But for me it just felt like pure opportunity because, um, you know, I guess I'm like comfortable as um, comfortable as like a leader, and -

JI: Yeah, you can handle it.

WW: Yeah.

JI: You you'd rather drive than ride. I'm that, I'm that way too.

WW: Absolutely. And and so for me it's like this incredible opportunity to participate meaningfully in the conversation that's happening right now and it's a conversation that I think is um exciting and important and necessary and tricky. Um, but I'm not scared to look it in the eye I suppose.

JI: Right. Where I grew up, the - the masculinity thing was - was - was, it was severe. And it's like, a thing that now I feel like in some ways I'm I'm on the other side of that kind, that idea of masculinity and and looking at it and thinking like, you know, there's a lot of things that you can be called on the internet and every once in a while I see one of them and I go, "Oh man!" But it's never one of those, you know, guys that's calling me somehow less of a man.

WW: Yeah.

JI: Those don't even register. Those are just funny to me because I know -

WW: Maybe even sometimes feel good?

JI: Yeah. Oh, totally, totally. Yeah.

WW: Yeah, that's like a compliment. Yeah.

JI: Yeah, and it also makes me sad for them.

WW: Right.

JI: You know, uh uh in a way because it's like, yeah, fuck that guy. But still I wish somebody somewhere had managed to get through to him

WW: Yeah.

JI: that that's not how you do it.

WW: Well, if he's you know hitting you back on Twitter, that means he's engaging with your uh content

JI: Yeah.

WW: and that means maybe there's a glimmer of hope for him.

JI: (Laughs) Sir, please continue to engage with my content.

WW: That's right.

JI: I'm not going to block you,

WW: That's right.

JI: I'm just going to mute you,

WW: Yeah.

JI: So I have to talk to you about this, uh recently you you had uh testicular cancer.

WW: Yes.

JI: And you chose to talk about that. What, what made you feel like you wanted to open up about that?

WW: It was um interesting, basically what happened is I uh, I was traveling for work. I noticed a lump on one of my testicles and I was like, that is not normal. I need to have that checked out as soon as I get back to New York and yeah, in the past I don't - I probably would have like noticed it and just buried that information. Um but essentially I got back, I went in uh to see the doctor and I thought it was gonna be just like, this is no big deal. Something really normal is happening to you. And it became very - the word cancer was, he put it on the table

JI: That was there.

WW: very fast.

JI: Yeah. I remember you called me and I could tell that you were scared.

WW: Yeah.

JI: I was scared. You know, and it was a few days there that that it was tense.

WW: Yeah. And it was basically a six day stretch that ended in me having uh surgery to have the, the testicle in question removed and along the way I had to write an editor's letter and I was like, either I can lie and write about something else and say, "Did you see the pretty pictures on page 163?" Or I can deal with the thing that is occupying 97 percent of my brain and basically process through writing and sharing.

JI: Yeah.

WW: Basically I made a couple of corny like dad-like ball jokes.

JI: Gotta do it.

WW: Yeah. Um just to like keep things light, and I basically just shared what I was going through. And a lot of what I was going through was um, it was scary enough that I was able to ask myself if everything is not all right, is it still all right?

JI: Yeah.

WW: And the answer to that question was yes.

JI: Yeah. I could, I could hear that.

WW: Even if this goes the worst way, it's alright. You know.

JI: Which is the best, I think the best thing you can hope for as an adult human

WW: Yeah.

JI: person is like, you know, yeah. One day I'm going to be gone.

WW: Yeah.

JI: Okay.

WW: Okay.

JI: If it's today, alright.

WW: I don't need to go bungee jumping.

JI: Yeah. Bungee jumping's pretty awesome though, but -

WW: I haven't done it.

JI: It's - it's pretty awesome. But still, yeah. I mean -

WW: Super scared of heights.

JI: Like I'm not, I'm not uh, I'm not, you know, if I had 24 hours, I don't think I'm making a bunch of phone calls.

WW: Right. Yeah.

JI: You know, uh I don't, I don't think that's how I want to, uh that's how I want to spend it, you know. Uh I think everybody knows, you know, and I felt like that with you. Like, you know, yeah. If, if, if this went completely sideways and there's no more Will, Will did a good job, you know what I mean?

WW: Yeah, and I would, you know, if that's how it went, I would be very grateful for the last five years especially.

That's my friend, Will Welch, who is now cancer free.

Death, Sex & Money is a listener-supported production of WNYC Studios in New York. Our team includes Katie Bishop, Anabel Bacon, Emily Botein, and Andrew Dunn.

The Reverend John Delore and Steve Lewis wrote our theme music.

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You can follow me, Jason Isbell, on Twitter and Instagram. I think I'm also on Facebook. My latest album with my band, the 400 Unit, is called Live from the Ryman. And I hope you'll catch me and my band on the road. Check my website, jasonisbell.com, for a tour date near you.

WW: Ultimately what we're really trying to do here is promote our wares. So,

JI: Yeah. If you want to know the secrets to the friendship between two grown men who share three testicles, please buy my records, and a copy of GQ Magazine.

WW: Many copies. All the copies.

JI: Yeah, all the copies.

I'm Jason Isbell, and this is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC.

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