Hrishikesh Hirway: I mostly felt helpless. Because I felt like I didn't have the proximity to help with the day-to-day things of just making my parents' lives easier, and I didn't have the knowledge to offer any kind of solution. Um, so I mostly just stood by and hoped that things weren't getting worse. 

(Death, Sex & Money theme music)

Anna Sale: This is Death, Sex & Money. 

The show from WNYC about the things we think about a lot...

...and need to talk about more.

I’m Anna Sale.

(end Death, Sex & Money theme music)

Anna Sale: Hrishikesh Hirway hosts one of my favorite podcasts, Song Exploder…

[Song Exploder excerpt]

(theme music)

Hrishikesh Hirway: You’re listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs, and piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I’m Hrishikesh Hirway.

[fade out Song Exploder excerpt]

Anna Sale: ...a podcast that's been around since 2014.

Hrishikesh is a musician, and Song Exploder brings me into that creative process in a way I love, as it describes how a song is built track by track. He does a similar thing, but with turning pantry staples into a meal, on the podcast Home Cooking, a show he launched with chef and co-host Samin Nosrat in the early days of the pandemic. 

[Home Cooking excerpt]

(theme music)

Samin Nosrat: We’re still home cooking.

Hrishikesh Hirway: You know, when you order french fries from a fast food place, and you eat all the french fries.

Samin Nosrat: Uh-huh.

Hrishikesh Hirway: And then you look in the bag and there’s still some french fries down at the bottom of the bag.

Samin Nosrat: And you’re so excited.

Hrishikesh Hirway: That’s what this episode is.

Samin Nosrat: Yeah. (laughs) We’re like the last two french fries, and you’re like “YESSS!”

Hrishikesh Hirway: (laughs)

[fade out Home Cooking excerpt]

Anna Sale: On that show, Hrishikesh and Samin talked often about the food they grew up with. And for Hrishikesh, those touchpoints all came from his mom, Kanta. 

Anna Sale: If you picture the home that you grew up in and you flash on an image of your mother, what was she doing?

Hrishikesh Hirway: She was in the kitchen, cooking and probably talking on the phone at the same time. Um, there was, you know, a long cord that we got- (laughs) I remember we got a longer cord for the phone so that she could walk around more easily, you know, without being constrained by the shorter length of the- the sort of spirally, twisty phone cord.

Anna Sale: Uh-huh. The factory-issued cord was not sufficient in your household. You had to get a special cord. (laughs)

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah, you know she could get to the fridge, she could get to the sink, she could get to the stove, all while keeping her conversation going.

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm. And who did she talk on the phone to? 

Hrishikesh Hirway: Oh, she had so many friends. Um, and she would talk to all of them, you know, in a sort of constant rotation. The thing my mom's siblings always talked about and still talk about is that my mom was the storyteller of the family.

(“Home” by Hrishikesh Hirway, feat. Jay Som)

Hrishikesh Hirway: And she used to sometimes go watch movies and then retell the movie's plot to her three younger siblings. And they would just be wrapped. They used to talk about how well she would describe everything that happened and that they felt like they were watching the movie themselves.

Anna Sale: This is how Hrishikesh remembers his mother. But towards the end of her life, Kanta was no longer able to be the bubbly, social center of her friends and family. She developed a degenerative neurological condition that limited her mobility, and eventually, her ability to communicate. 

She died in the fall of 2020, and Hrishikesh has been releasing new solo music this year about the grief of losing his mother when she was in her early 70s, and in the years leading up to her death.

(music swells)

Lyrics: We’ve had to learn how to lose

Anna Sale: This is Hrishikesh’s song, “Home”.

Lyrics: From everything we’ve been through

(fade out “Home”)

Anna Sale: I wanted to talk to Hrishikesh about losing his mother, and also, to learn more about her life before her illness. Kanta married his father when she was 24 and they moved to the US from India the same year. Two years after that, they had Hrishikesh’s sister, and he was born when Kanta was 31. 

Hrishikesh Hirway: You know, my first few years of life she- she didn't work. And then she started working at Sears- nights. So my dad would be home. She would usually get a ride there. She didn't drive herself, so she would get a ride to work. And then we would go pick her up, you know, around, um, 9 o'clock or 9:30 or something like that. And I would already be in my pajamas and basically asleep in the car, but my dad and I would go pick her up. 

Anna Sale: Uh-huh. And do you recall or have a sense, like why did she take that job? To work nights? 

Hrishikesh Hirway: I think it was, you know, partly just so our family could have a little bit more money. Um, but I know it was partly also because they offered an employee discount. And, um, and she thought, “This is a good idea. You know, I could get- make some money, but then also we could get clothes, um, a little bit cheaper.” I think it also gave her a chance to just sort of do something else outside of the house. I think it might've been our next door neighbor, um, uh- Mrs. Teal, who suggested that she look for, uh, look for a part-time job just to have something of her own. Um, Mrs. Teal was a very influential figure in our- in our life in general.

Anna Sale: Huh. Was Mrs. Teal the same age as your mom?

Hrishikesh Hirway: Um, I don't know. I- (laughs) I- she only, she registered as an adult.

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Hrishikesh Hirway: So in my mind she was, but I don't know if they were the same age or if they were- they were like 10 years apart in age, I have no idea. 

Anna Sale: Yeah. Cause there's one way to think of it, like here's your mom, this person who loves to talk on the phone, who finally has her younger child in school, and she's got this friend who can give her a ride to the mall for this like evening job to have this totally, you know, um, just like, yeah- another way of being in the world and having- being social, um, working retail.

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah.

Anna Sale: Um, while also getting a discount. 

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yes.

Anna Sale: When Hrishikesh was 13, he moved out of the house to go to a New England boarding school about an hour away, and after college, he moved to the west coast, where he still lives. As he became an adult, he became another person Kanta kept track of with regular check-ins and phone calls.

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah, we would talk on the phone. And then my mom eventually got instant messenger. 

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm.

Hrishikesh Hirway: She got on AOL Instant Messenger. So there was a while when she would IM me, um, a lot. In the sort of early part of the 2000s, starting around like 2003, 2004, she left Massachusetts and went and lived with my dad who had moved away for work. Uh, they'd been sort of separated for- I mean, just separated by distance, not like separated maritally or anything like that. Um, cause my dad got a job in Nebraska and my mom wanted to stay in our home in- you know, our house in Massachusetts and sort of maintain some sense of that home. Um, but eventually, I think my sister and I talked her into, you know, moving out to- to be closer to my dad. And when she did that, that's when she started, getting really, um, more internet savvy and I was terrible- I would often leave them unanswered, because I'd be too busy. You know, she'd be asking me how I was. The question of the day was always like, “What did you eat? What did you eat for lunch? What did you eat for dinner?”

Anna Sale: (laughs) Uh-huh.

Hrishikesh Hirway: And I didn't have anything interesting to say, I was like, “I don't know, you know, I microwaved something.” Um, but it was just a way for her to feel like I was okay.

Anna Sale: Yeah.

Hrishikesh: Yeah. So I think she- she missed me, she missed my sister a lot and, um, and I don't think I really appreciated it at the time. I didn't appreciate- I didn't appreciate it beyond sort of a sense of like, it was kind of nagging. 

(“Still Dreaming” by Hrishikesh Hirway)

Anna Sale: Yeah. It's like, it was a message coming in when you were doing something else.

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah.

(music swells)

Lyrics: Then I met you

You called out to

Some part of me

Still dreaming

Still dreaming

(fade out “Still Dreaming”)

Anna Sale: When did your mother first notice that she was having symptoms of something that was new?

Hrishikesh Hirway: Well, it took us a while to figure out what was happening. Um, first it was, her knees were- were giving her a lot of trouble and she ended up having replacement surgery on both knees. And then eventually she needed a walker. Um, and- and then we couldn't figure out what was happening, um. She- because it wasn't just her knees. It wasn't just her joints. It was something about her mobility and her balance was off. Um, and then the other strange symptom that started to come was she started to lose her voice. And it seemed like it was a side effect, maybe, of some medicine? But she was starting to take more medicine to- to kind of counteract some of the symptoms. And they were overlapping in ways that we couldn't quite understand. And so we couldn't understand what was a side effect and what was the symptom?

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm. Was it sort of a family project to try to figure out what was going on?

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah. My dad, of course, was with her every day. At this point, they had moved to the suburbs of Chicago. Um, my mom had gotten my dad a new job, so. (laughs) She was like “I don’t want to live in Nebraska.” (laughs) 

Anna Sale: Wait, she, hang on. (laughs) Just help me- explain why you say it that way?

Hrishikesh Hirway: Well, my dad has been living in a very, very, very small town in Nebraska, a population of 2000 or so. It was mostly farmland. And my mom didn't know anybody there. Um, she was feeling, you know, I think quite disconnected. Um, and so she got there and within months- as part of her kind of internet training, she learned about monster.com. And, um, and she would just go on there and look for jobs for my dad, who's a food scientist, and she found him- she found a job, um, in Chicago. Um, and uh- told him about it and pushed him to apply. And then he got it, and then they moved. She was in Nebraska for less than a year.

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Hrishikesh Hirway: (laughs) After my dad had been there for, you know, eight years or something.

Anna Sale: This won't do, we're going to monster.com. Okay. 

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah. 

Anna Sale: So they moved to Chicago together. So you were explaining- your father was there with her and he's seeing this up close. 

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah. So he was there, um, you know, taking her to local doctors there. Um, but eventually, um, you know, it started to become more and more noticeable. Um, in 2011, when- when I got married, you know, a really strange thing happened where my mom's voice had given out in a way where she couldn't really be a part of the wedding in the- in a way that felt right to me. You know, she- this really social person was somehow, um, missing from- from that important day. I mean, she was there and she enjoyed it and I, you know, I have pictures of her smiling and laughing. She couldn't say anything. She didn't make a speech or really even talk to people so much because, um, her voice was so reduced physically that it took a lot of effort for her to speak. And it took a lot of effort to- to hear her, frankly. And I don't think I realized, like, how much worse it would get from there. 

(“Seams” by Hrishikesh Hirway)

Lyrics: You said you lost your voice for a while, kept to yourself

The only words you said were a wish to

Be someone else

Anna Sale: Over the next eight years, Hrishikesh and his family took Kanta to different doctors, as they eliminated causes for her various symptoms. And then finally, in 2019, they figured it out.

(fade out “Seams”)

Anna Sale: What was the diagnosis you received in 2019?

Hrishikesh Hirway: It was a PSP, which stands for progressive supranuclear palsy, um, which is a pretty rare degenerative neurological condition. But once we got that diagnosis and sort of, I remember reading the- reading the symptoms, um, it made so much sense. 

Anna Sale: So by the time your family had this name for, for what was happening in your mom's body, was it something that you could talk with her about?

Hrishikesh Hirway: No, I didn't really talk about it with my mom ever. Um, there was something just so sad about it and, uh, inevitable about it, that I didn't see really what the point would be to talk- to discuss it with her. Um, I tended to- to try and just- I mean, as I, I did for most of my life, especially, you know, once I got to be a teenager or a little bit older, I just- my relationship with my mom basically became just me trying to make her laugh all the time. I would just tell her just terrible jokes to make her get- you know, laugh really hard and try and hit me. That was the- you know, the best reaction that I could get from her, is like a cackle and like her reaching out to try and like slap my arm or something. Um, and so that's sort of what I- I limited my interactions with her to stuff like that. Or, you know, when, when it'd be her birthday or something, I would ask her, um, you know, what she would want. Just things that I could try and do, to try and make things- just find ways to give her any kind of joy or something. I don't know. I don't know if she was depressed. I don't know how she felt about- about things because she really wasn't able to articulate it. And I think maybe one of the saddest things about, um, PSP for me was this, uh, in the, you know, in, in the reading that I was doing, one of the symptoms was that it- uh, it reduces people's ability to feel pleasure. 

(“Stillness” by Hrishikesh Hirway)

Hrishikesh Hirway: And all the things, you know, like the- her inability to move around the way that she- she used to be able to, her inability to talk to me the way that she used to. That idea- that she wasn't able to just have pleasure in things the way that she used to- really broke my heart. 

Lyrics: All summer on your fire escape

Did you already know, darling, the mess I’d make?

Anna Sale: Coming up… how Hrishikesh’s mom’s decline and death in 2020 transformed his whole family. 

Hrishikesh Hirway: Um, after my mom passed away, we just kind of, despite how- how much support we got from our friends and the people who loved my mom, um, it just felt a little bit like we retreated a bit away from everyone else. And, and we kind of did that together as a family.

(fade out “Stillness”)

Anna Sale: This is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. I’m Anna Sale. 

It took years for Hrishikesh Hirway’s family to get a diagnosis for the constellation of symptoms that were making it difficult for his mother to move around and communicate. But even after that, they didn’t know what would happen next. 

And so, like many of us when we face uncertainty, Hrishikesh turned to the internet.

Hrishikesh Hirway: I mean, when you read it on a website, it's just- it's so, uh. Well, I mean, it's clinical. Um, but I remember- I remember reading, like- something like PSP in and of itself is not fatal. However, most people do die from secondary, uh, effects because of PSP. Um, you know, because it affects your balance, people might, uh, fall or- or, um, it also affects, um, sort of involuntary motor function as well. Um, and so, um, people might have trouble swallowing and they might choke on something and- you know, there was- just suddenly everything was a minefield and, uh, and you know, it felt like there was just no way to know what could happen. Um, so yeah, I really tried to not talk to her about her condition. 

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm.

Hrishikesh Hirway: I don't know if that was irresponsible of me, but it just- it, you know, she- she and my dad spent so much time going to doctors, talking to specialists or whatever. I just felt like I didn't need to be adding, um, to the- to the tonnage of information that they were getting.

Anna Sale: As you're taking in this information about how your family is changing and in ways that you can't do anything about, um, did you explore making music about it?

Hrishikesh: Not intentionally, but I did write a song in 2018, um, that I realized was about my mom, as much as it was, uh, the- the sort of actual person who inspired it, who was, um- which was Sandra Day O'Connor. 

(“Memory Palace” by Hrishikesh Hirway, feat. Jenny Owen Youngs)

Anna Sale: Sandra Day O’Connor, the former US Supreme Court Justice. The song is called “Memory Palace”.

Hrishikesh Hirway: Sandra Day O'Connor had- had written- in October of that year she had written this- this letter, um, letting people know that she had Alzheimer's and, um, that she was retreating from- from public life.

(music swells)

Lyrics: But, love, the light around that picture's going dim

So before the sweetest memories cave in

I'm not giving up, just giving in

Yeah, I'm leaving, I'm leaving

Hrishikesh Hirway: I found it so moving and I was thinking about, you know, the idea of sort of recognizing your body changing as it was happening and sort of making a decision. And, and so there was a line that I wrote that was, uh- 

(lyrics play in sync)

Hrishikesh Hirway: “I've been changing. I know you can tell… my hands shake, your heart aches.” And, um, you know- hands shaking was not- is not really something that I- I think necessarily, uh, Sandra was experiencing, but it was something that I thought about with my mom, and those stories started to overlap with me in that song. 

(fade out “Memory Palace”)

Anna Sale: Like, I remember when that news story happened, I remember, um, the- the letter, what I remember about it was- um, it was an announcement of- of, as you say, like her retreating from public life and wanting to say why, while she felt confident that she could still be the one, um, narrating it. Um, it was sort of, “I want to tell you why, if you're wondering.”

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yes, right.

Anna Sale: And so that line, “I've been changing, I know you can tell” is- is both, um, “Here's what I'm noticing about, I'm- I'm changing. And also I want to acknowledge that I know you have noticed. And maybe we haven't said it out loud yet because it's painful.”

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah. I think one thing that struck me about it was that she had an agency about it, um, that, uh, I admired and also kind of felt sad about, that my mom didn't get to have something like that. In some ways I was almost jealous of the idea that she could so eloquently express that this is what's happening to her. And this is a decision that she's going to make because of that. Um, it felt like we were pretty helpless and didn't get to make decisions about anything. And- and my mom certainly didn't get the chance to express anything as eloquently as she once could.

Anna Sale: When she was declining at the very end of her life, was it an end that you saw coming?

Hrishikesh Hirway: It was one of those secondary reasons. As far as we can tell, she had a- she had a heart attack, um, and um- and she went really fast. Um. She was sort of as close to her normal self as she was kind of one minute and then, um, and then she was gone the next.

Anna Sale: After Kanta died, Hrishikesh told me he had a dream about his mother. It started with a familiar scene. She was asking for a glass of water from bed. He put it on the nightstand for her, and left, not wanting to disturb her.

Hrishikesh Hirway: And then I went outside of the house. And I stood out there and I started to leave, and then I turned around and I started to run back and my mom had come out of the room- had come out of the house. And she sat down on these stairs and we had, um, a very kind of frank conversation- a tender one, but frank and, and, you know, and, um, um, and we told each other that we missed each other. 

Anna Sale: Oh.

Hrishikesh Hirway: And there was some, you know, acknowledgement in that moment that she was gone and she knew it and I knew it.

(“Between There and Here” by Hrishikesh Hirway, feat. Yo-Yo Ma)

Lyrics: I can’t see where you are

Anna Sale: This is the song, called “Between There and Here”, that he wrote after that dream, with Yo-Yo Ma on cello. 

Lyrics: By the murmuring TV

You'd fall asleep to in bed

You sat and looked at me

I said I miss you

You said, "I know."

(fade out “Between There and Here”)

Hrishikesh Hirway: I remember when I played- when I played the song the first time, it did feel- it felt really nice. Um, I think it felt a little bit like I was doing some kind of- some honor to her memory, or something like that. One thing is that my mom- my mom really liked it when I sang. Um, and she liked my- she liked my songs. Uh, I remember, uh, you know, for a while I took a break from music, and as much as my parents, you know, were as, as Indian immigrants were sort of not thrilled about the idea of me trying to be a musician full-time um, my mum did always, uh, like my songs and she would sometimes sing them herselves and you know, or after I'd taken a long time, uh, taken a long break from music, she would ask me, she was like, “When are you going to sing again?”

Anna Sale: Was she well in your dream?

Hrishikesh Hirway: She was, yeah. She was the way that I remember her, in the- the kind of like platonic ideal version of my mom, talking and moving around and, um, as sharp and as warm as ever. 

Anna Sale: Long phone cord era mother.

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah. That- that era of my mom sort of conti- extends from all the way from when I was six up until, you know, when I was 30. Um, she's the same person.

Anna: I'm curious, you said that your- your mother loved to hear you sing. Was there a particular song of yours that- that she liked your voice in?

(“In The Time We’ve Got” by The One AM Radio)

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah. There was a song- there's a song that I wrote called “In The Time We’ve Got,” um, that came out on a record in 2007.

(music swells)

Lyrics: "It's our job to live as well as we can in the time we've got,"

Was written in the note I found when I woke.

Hrishikesh Hirway: And I remember hearing her sing that.

Anna Sale: She sang it, uh-huh?

(fade out “In The Time We’ve Got”)

Hrishikesh Hirway: She had a great voice. Yeah. And I remember actually I tried to get her to sing on the track with me. 

Anna Sale: Oh, and she wouldn’t?

Hrishikesh Hirway: No, she was willing to. I thought, you know- it took some convincing, but I thought, oh, wouldn't this be nice. A way to like capture- uh, capture this moment. She's singing along with the song, uh it’s going to be great. I- I can remember being in the living room with her and putting, you know, the headphones on. I think it was the first time I'd ever seen my mom wearing headphones (laughs) and, uh, we couldn't do it. She- even though she was a great singer and she would sing all the time, um, the process of actually sort of recording her voice, uh, in a particular rhythm and a particular key, you know, uh, and a particular cadence that matched what I was singing and went along with the track, she couldn't do it. (laughs) And um, and we ended up just saying, “Okay, well, we tried. Didn’t happen.” 

Anna Sale: Yeah, the pitfalls of trying to collaborate with family, it doesn't always work. (laughs)

Hrishikesh Hirway: (laughs) Yeah.

Anna Sale: When they weren’t trying to record together, and before she got sick, Hrishikesh remembers his mom’s singing as the opposite of labored… more an easy, constant comfort. He told me that earlier this year, when the Indian singer Lata Mangeshkar died at the age of 92, memories of that came flooding back.

Hrishikesh Hirway: When I used to hear my mom sing, um, she would sing- she would sing Indian songs, um, for the most part. And she would sing things from- from movies that she had seen, and uh, songs from before I was born- and Lata Mangeshkar, uh, being the most famous singer, was just a huge presence. She was a huge part of that. My mom would sing her songs all the time. And Lata Mangeshkar was also Marathi, like my family is.

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm.

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah, she was incredible. She, at one point held the Guinness book of world records for the most songs ever recorded by a person. She- she's recorded over 25,000 songs. But my connection to her was through my mom. 

Anna Sale: Uh-huh.

Hrishikesh Hirway: And, um, when I saw the news that she passed away, it struck me really, really hard. I felt real grief. Because I went back and I- I started listening to, um, some of her songs, my favorite songs of hers, which were- I only know because they were also my mom’s favorite songs. 

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm.

Hrishikesh Hirway: And you know- so there's a song that Lata Mangeshkar sang from a film that is a lullaby and my- my mom I remember sang it to me and I would ask her to sing it to me as a lullaby when I was a- when I was a kid, a song that- you know, a song from a movie that came out in like 1980. 

Anna Sale: Mm. What- what's the name of the lullaby?

Hrishikesh Hirway: Oh, um, the song is called, uh, let me get it right. It's in Hindi, and I don't- I don't really- I don't speak Hindi (laughs) very well or at all, really. Um, after my mom passed away I remember I was trying to find the song so I could listen to it. And I didn't know the name of it. The name- the song is- is called “Halke Halke Aayi Chalake”, but I thought it was called “Chupke Chupke”, which are other lyrics that are in the song and I was like, I'm searching everywhere for “Chupke Chupke”. It's not- I can't find it. And it turns out I had the title wrong.

Anna Sale: Um, I won’t ask you to sing the words, but would you hum a little bit of it? 

Hrishikesh Hirway: Um, yeah. Uh, I could play it for you, but do you want me to actually s- you want my voice doing it?

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Hrishikesh Hirway: Um. (laughs) Out of nervousness. Is it okay if- you won't hear it in my, in my mic, but can I play a- play a little bit the music so I can just-

Anna Sale: Oh, sure.

Hrishikesh Hirway: Okay. Okay, thanks. (laughs)

(“Halke-Halke Aayi Chalake” by Lata Mangeshkar)

Hrishikesh Hirway: (singing) Halke-halke aayi chalake, bolee nindiya raani… (laughs) I can't do this stuff that she does. Her voice is amazing.

Anna Sale: (whispers) I love that.

Lyrics: …too so jaa re

Hrishikesh Hirway: too so jaa re…

Lyrics: Halke-halke-

Hrishikesh Hirway: It goes on like that- 

Anna Sale: Yeah.

Hrishikesh Hirway: (singing) aayi chalake bolee nindiya raani… Oof that probably sounded terrible (laughs)

Anna Sale: No, it sounds really beautiful. And it also, um- I feel like it's justice, uh, because we were talking about your mother not quite getting into the register-

Hrishikesh Hirway: (laughs)

Anna Sale: -that you wanted her to get into. (laughs)

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah, yes. 

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Hrishikesh Hirway: Yeah. My mom would be so happy about that- that you just made me sing that song.

(Death, Sex & Money theme music)

Anna Sale: That’s Hrishikesh Hirway…

Hrishikesh Hirway: If- if you use that, will you put the music under it? So I'm not just bare naked terrible.

Anna Sale: Yeah, yeah. As one, one podcast producer to another, we’ll- we’ll- I'm looking out, I'm looking out.

Hrishikesh Hirway: Ahh, thank you. (laughs)

Anna Sale: (laughs)

Hrishikesh Hirway: (laughs) That is not my key. 

Anna Sale: You can find his music on Spotify, including his newest song, which you heard in this episode, called “Still Dreaming”. We have a link to it in our show notes, as well as to the podcasts Home Cooking and Song Exploder. There’s also a spinoff Netflix series called Song Exploder which is fantastic (don’t sleep on the REM and Alicia Keys episodes).

Death, Sex & Money is a listener-supported production of WNYC Studios in New York. This episode was produced by me and the rest of the team is Andrew Dunn, Zoe Azulay, Afi Yellow-Duke, Liliana Maria Percy Ruiz and Lindsay Foster-Thomas. Our intern is Lilly Clark.

The Reverend John Delore and Steve Lewis wrote our theme music. 

Thanks to Christine Kemp from Amherst, New York for being a member of Death, Sex & Money and supporting us with a monthly donation. Join Christine and support what we do here by going to deathsexmoney.org/donate. 

I’m on Instagram at @annasalepics, that’s P-I-C-S, and the show is @deathsexmoney on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

And I have one more very important thing to tell you. Next month, the San Francisco-based ice cream shop “Salt and Straw” is releasing a new limited edition ice cream flavor inspired by Kanta Hirway’s mango pie recipe. It’s called “Mom’s Mango Pie” and they’ll ship it anywhere in the US. Yum. 

I’m Anna Sale and this is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. 

(end Death, Sex & Money theme music)

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