Anna Sale: Hey, it’s Anna. Before we get to the new episode, I want to remind you that we have a special series coming out next week…about estrangement. You, our listeners, shared your stories of strain that led to ruptures…in relationships, with communities, even with a set of former values…and you told us, what happened next. 

(music)

Another thing we heard is that the holiday season…which we are officially in…can be rough. 

Listener 1: I've been struggling to be estranged from my mom since Christmas.

Listener 2: After a particularly distressing holiday episode.

Listener 3: Thanksgiving she's getting angrier and angrier basically because I said that I needed a break.

Listener 4: My dad texted at the last minute, when we were going to come down on Christmas Eve day and said, you know what? It turns out, you're coming down, doesn't work for us.

Listener 5: We would have family gatherings and it was the weirdest thing–It was just play- acting, but some people were pretending that others were ghosts is how it felt.

Anna Sale: If you are looking ahead to a Thanksgiving weekend and thinking about any difficult or even estranged relationships in your life, know that you’ve got some company among your fellow listeners. And we hope that this series on estrangement, which starts next week, will be helpful to all of you. 

(music fades out)

In the meantime, here is a fun conversation I taped on stage in Berkeley, California, with writer and humorist Fran Lebowitz. It'll keep you laughing while you cook, or at the very least, help you focus on something else for a half hour. I hope you enjoy it. 

Fran Lebowitz: You know, luck is the single most important thing in life, and it's the thing people, for some reason, never think about. It's kind of un-American, luck, because you can't do it yourself. 

(Death, Sex & Money theme music)

Anna Sale: This is Death, Sex & Money. 

The show from WNYC about the things we think about a lot...

...and need to talk about more.

I'm Anna Sale.

(end of Death, Sex & Money theme music) 

(applause)

Fran Lebowitz: Hi. Hi. 

Anna Sale: Good evening, Fran. 

Fran Lebowitz: How are you? 

Anna Sale: Earlier this year, I got to interview writer Fran Lebowitz onstage at the Berkeley Repertory Theater in California. 

Fran is a force, and interviewing her is kind of like tossing a softball her way, and then just watching to see where she chooses to send it off to. She never misses an opportunity to make her audience laugh… even when she’s making fun of them. 

Fran Lebowitz: The main thing I noticed about Berkeley, and I knew this because I had been here a few years ago, is the unfathomable and enraging way restaurants are run here, which is that they're open for two hours, and they close and they're open for two hours… like I don't understand the point of this. You have the restaurant, open it.

And this is the worst thing about Berkeley. In fact, this is the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. And last time I was here, I was thrown out of a restaurant. I was eating, reading a book, and I heard this guy screaming. I didn't pay attention. He kept screaming and then I looked up, I realized he was screaming at me and he was saying, “Get out! Get out, get out! We're closing!” I said, “But I'm in the middle of eating. You brought me this food. Why didn't you say you have four minutes?” So this is the main thing I notice about Berkeley, cause I cannot think of another place where this is true and I don’t know why it's true. 

Anna Sale: Fran grew up in New Jersey, but has lived in New York City since she was 19. After finding success at a young age with her first two books, Metropolitan Life and Social Studies, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, she hasn’t published much since, citing a decades-long writer’s block. 

Instead, she’s supported herself as a professional talker. I first really got to know this side of Fran in Martin Scorsese’s 2010 documentary about her called, Public Speaking. They teamed up again for the multi-part Netflix series called, Pretend It’s A City, that came out in early 2021. 

Fran is 72 now, and on stage in Berkeley, we talked about the writers she spends time with, her opinions on talent versus luck, her vendetta against hiking, and how she’s made and maintained friendships over the years.

Anna Sale: One thing that I think about when I think of you is what a tremendous curator of friendships you are. And I'm curious, when you moved to New York, knowing no one as a teenager, where did you make your first friends? 

Fran Lebowitz: I knew no one and when I told my parents, “I'm moving to New York, and I'm gonna move to New York and become a writer.” My mother said, “But we don't know anyone in New York.” And my parents were not the most worldly people on the planet Earth. And I certainly wasn't. So, I thought she meant I wouldn't have any friends. So I said, “Well, I'll make friends.” She meant, you have to know people to do anything in New York, which is true. 

And I think my parents said, “Well, you know, you should be in school but you're not because you got expelled, so if you take a course in some school, we will pay for it.” So I took a course at the New School, which had a student lounge. So I hung around this student lounge so I met, you know, this girl there, and I went to her apartment. She had two roommates who were older, who worked at advertising and I became their cleaning lady.

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm. 

Fran Lebowitz: And this was fantastic because they were never home. And I would come in and clean the house in like two minutes, and then I would spend the rest of the day in their nice air conditioning. So you know, if you're really young… I just met lots of people… 

Anna Sale: Uh-huh. 

Fran Lebowitz: Because I was young and because it was during the Vietnam War. There were protests, you'd meet people at protests. There were certainly a lot of people to meet. 

Anna Sale: You've said that with your friendship with Toni Morrison, you spoke on the phone nearly every day for 40 years. Was there a pattern in who called whom? 

Fran Lebowitz: No. I mean, I didn't speak on the phone to Toni every day. In the last year of her life, I probably did because she was not well. Um, there were periods… because Toni loved crime. I don't mean she was a criminal, but I mean, she loved to watch trials. She loved detective books. And so Toni and I did watch the entire OJ Simpson trial on television. It was a whole year. So if you wanna know, what did Toni Morrison devote a year of her life to? And the OJ Simpson trial was a year. It was five days a week, so it was like a job. And because it was in LA it started at noon in New York. So I would do this every day and we'd talk about it. 

Anna Sale: You, were you in your apartment? She in her home? 

Fran Lebowitz: Toni was in Princeton. Toni was teaching there. I was actually in Princeton then because I rented a house there because they were putting a roof on my building. It was too noisy. So I was feeling guilty thinking, ‘Fran, you know, you're here, you're supposed to be writing.’ Then I would think, ‘Well, Toni's doing it.’ (laughing) And that's because I did not know till then, whatever year that was, that Toni got up at like four in the morning, and went right to the desk, and by the time the OJ Simpson trial came on, she was done. She was done. 

So we watched that whole trial. She thought he was innocent. Toni thought he was innocent. We fought. We didn't just watch the trial, we fought about the trial! We also watched the Menendez brothers' trial. She thought they were innocent. Toni thinks everyone is innocent! 

In fact, at Toni's memorial service, Angela Davis was there, and she was a very close friend of Toni's, and I was talking to Angela, and, I don’t know how this came up, I don't remember what we were talking about. I said, “Yeah, well, Toni thought he was innocent.” I said, “You know, Toni thought everyone was innocent.” She said, “I know. Toni thought OJ Simpson was innocent.” She did, she thought everyone was innocent. I mean, it's an amazing thing that anyone as smart as Toni could think everyone is innocent. But just in regular life, you know, without a major trial, we spoke several times a week on the phone. 

Anna Sale: Uh-huh.

Fran Lebowitz: And then Toni had an apartment in New York. She didn't really like New York and she mostly was in the country. In the last year or so of her life, maybe a year and a half, she wasn't well. She stayed in the country despite my telling her, “Come to New York.” Where she lived, no one goes there to go to the doctor, okay? People come to New York to go to the doctor. 

And she really became demanding of company. So she would say, “You know, when are you coming up to see me?” I would say, “You know, Toni, I was there like three days ago.” “Well, yeah, well come.” I said, “Toni, I'd love to see you. It takes the whole day, by the way.” 

And she would go, “You know, why doesn't Angela come to see me?” I would say, “Angela was here last week.” She would say, “Yeah, but that was last week.” “See, Angela lives in California, you know?” It's bad enough to drive up there from New York. So we talked on the phone a lot. I mean, I don’t know who called who, I don’t. 

Anna Sale: Uh-huh. And you've described, kind of even going back to your high school days, that you have always been a floater person where you're not friends with one group of people, but you accumulate this community of friends by circulating in different crowds. Do you enjoy when your friends become friends with one another, or does that feel like parts of your life are merging in an uncomfortable way? 

Fran Lebowitz: No, I don't mind it at all. 

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm.  

Fran Lebowitz: I mean, it's not that common because I know so many different kinds of people, but it has happened. But I mean, high school, I'm sure everyone here has noticed that there's not as much difference as we would like between high school and adult life. We would like there to be a lot more difference than there is. 

But there is a difference that in high school, at least when I was in high school, which was a hundred years ago but this probably is still the case, you know, there are such defined groups. The fact that I was friends with different kinds of people caused a certain problem in high school, which is that I was friends with someone who was a cheerleader and she got kicked off the cheerleading squad for being friends with me. I didn't kick her off, but whoever ran the cheerleading squad, not that I would know who that was. So no, I don’t mind it. 

Anna Sale: When you go to a party or when you – pre pandemic, when there were regular large parties…

Fran Lebowitz: I still go to parties. 

Anna Sale: You still go to parties? 

Fran Lebowitz: I mean, not since Omicron.

Anna Sale: Okay. 

Fran Lebowitz: But there was that minute…

Anna Sale: The minute when we had parties…

Fran Lebowitz: Yeah. That was where everyone thought, “Well, it's over.” 

Anna Sale: When you go to a party, do you go by yourself? 

Fran Lebowitz: Always. Well, not always. If I can! 

Anna Sale: Uh-huh.

Fran Lebowitz: I hate going to parties with other people.

Anna Sale: Uh-huh.

Fran Lebowitz: I cannot believe that people willingly go places with other people. (laughing) But especially a party. I actually know some people who don't want to walk into a party by themselves. So let's say you're going, “Can I go with you?” I always think, “Oh, I don't wanna go with you.” I mean, even though I may really like them, they may be among my closest friends. 

It's horrible to go to a party with another person because then you have to deal with them. Like, “Well, I don't wanna leave now. You wanna leave now? I wanna sit there. I don't wanna sit.” I mean, it's like some horrible momentary marriage (audience laughing), which is better than a real marriage, but still not as good as going to a party by yourself. 

Anna Sale: And so if in an ideal scenario you go to a party by yourself, you show up, are you someone that kind of ends up kind of in a corner with a crew making jokes to each other? Or do you like floating around a party? 

Fran Lebowitz: I sit by myself. I like to sit by myself. You sit there and you wait for people to come talk to you. 

Anna Sale: Yeah. Yeah. 

Fran Lebowitz: I'm happy if they come, but if they don't come, I'm fine. Because I really just wanna watch the party. And yes, people will talk to me. I'm not a mingler, if that's what you mean, you know. 

I really enjoy parties. This is considered a very unusual thing. I mean, everyone I know does and has always said that they hate parties. I have never understood this. And they would say, “Why do you like parties?” Cause they're parties! (laughing) I mean, the point of them is fun. So why wouldn't you like them? And if you don't like them, why are you there? There's certain kinds of parties I don't like, you know. Everyone says they hate cocktail parties, but I really hate cocktail parties because I hate standing up and I don't drink.

So cocktail parties are okay if there's a place to sit, but there's certain places where there's no place to sit at all. Like in museums, there's no place to sit. And I always think, “You invited me here, you should provide me with a seat.” You know? And that Picasso. 

Anna Sale: Is the best party like a dinner party? 

Fran Lebowitz: It depends. Dinner parties are good, usually. But it can be the worst kind of party cause you're stuck.

Anna Sale:  Stuck. Yeah. 

Fran Lebowitz: You can really get stuck, you know? It's a little better now that I'm old.

Not that many things are. But because, you know, when I was young, at dinner parties, you sat between two men so you alternated hearing about their careers. (laughing) Which they described to you as if it was the landing at Normandy (laughing), which you frequently wished it was.

So, I mean, there's certain things that are better where it's better to be old. But since you don't have a choice, you know, it is better.

Anna Sale: Do you think most of your closest friends are people that you think are talented? 

Fran Lebowitz: Yeah, probably. I mean, I don't care what it is they do. I have friends who are artists who are very successful, who's work I don’t like. Whose work I wouldn't say I hate, but whose work I don't love. That would not be true of writers though, you know. I really have as few friends as possible who are writers.

Anna Sale: Why do you think that is? 

Fran Lebowitz: Have you ever met any writers? I mean, truthfully, not the best group of people to be friends with. (laughing) I prefer dead writers because you don’t see them at parties. So, no, I've certainly never hung around anything approaching a literary circle or anything like that, these things are horrible. That's high school. I mean, that is really the worst, you know. But I have some friends who are writers. All my friends who are writers, I love their work. I could not be friends with a writer whose work I didn't like. But a painter or a musician, I don't care that much. I mean, these are lesser things, let's face it. (laughing)

Anna Sale: Coming up… Fran and I talk about money, and ambition.

Fran Lebowitz: I mean, Americans have this idea that people become very rich because they're very smart. And I always think like, if you think that, you have never met a very smart person or a very rich person. (laughing) 

I once told a very rich guy, probably one of the richest guys in the country, I said, “You know, if I made a list of the 10 smartest people I've ever known, and the 10 richest people, there wouldn't be one crossover.” (audience laughs)

-

Anna Sale: This is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. I’m Anna Sale. 

Fran Lebowitz and I spoke earlier this year in front of a live audience in Berkeley, California. Here’s more of that conversation: 

Anna Sale: Speaking of talent, I'm curious what your observations have been in the art world, in the literary world, during your time in New York. What do you think is the relationship between talent and ambition? 

Fran Lebowitz: They're not related. I don't think they're related at all, and I don't think there's a relationship between talent and success either, okay? So I mean, success in every single field, you get it the same way: by being good at being successful. I mean, there may be some people who just sit there and produce wonderful work and someone comes in, but I've never seen them. So I will tell you that I know a couple of writers who are super, super talented and who have very little success because they're just bad at that. 

Anna Sale: Mm-hmm. 

Fran Lebowitz: I mean, one person I'm thinking of, it's not that she's so bad at being successful, it's that every time she's disappointed, you know, in the reception of her work, I always say, “They're like 10 people that would understand this, you know?” So sometimes it's that, but that's not that common, let's face it. 

So, I think, some people are good at being successful, they know how to do it. Some people are lucky. Your first luck in life is where you're born, okay? Like right now, I'm sure today there were many people born in Syrian refugee camps. These people are not gonna be successful writers. They might be great writers. We will never know. 

So that is really the first luck. And most people that I know – I don't know you, but I know this is true, are already lucky when they were born. And so that is the number one secret to success is that – in business, in money making, it's ruthlessness, period. 

You can be stupid and be very rich, but making money is ruthlessness and love. Love of money. I mean love. We're Americans, you know, we like money, we love a buck. But they love money, you know? They never live well, I mean they live very elaborately. But you never think, “that’s really nice!” And it’s never really nice. It’s just really expensive, that’s not the same thing. 

I've met a lot of these guys and it's like sitting next to a wolf, you know? And that's how you make billions of dollars. And that’s why you think it’s okay to make billions of dollars because it truly is not. They think they should have it, you know? 

Anna Sale: So let me ask you… 

Fran Lebowitz: They should be in jail. (audience clapping) 

Anna Sale: When I was preparing to speak with you, I had a short conversation with your speaking agent and I said, “I'm curious, like what's shifted in her life in the last couple of years? Wondering how the pandemic has changed things.” And he told me, “Well, she's wildly successful and super famous.” (audience laughs) 

And so I'm curious for you, since the Netflix series came out at a time when no one could leave their house so a lot of people watched it, and those who didn't already know and love you, came to know and love you. What's changed in your life being super famous and successful?

Fran Lebowitz: Well, I mean, Netflix certainly made a difference. I mean, I've never seen Netflix because I don't have a wifi connection in my apartment, but I know about it, of course I heard about it. But the reason it came out during the pandemic was because it was postponed numerous times. We didn't know there was going to be a pandemic.

If we did, we would've told people. I would've – by the way, stock up because there's this plague coming. (audience laughing) So that was one postponement. But the day after it came out, the first phone call I got about it was from a friend of mine who's a journalist in Dubai, and then someone called me from like Geneva, then LA. So then I realized, you know, that it was all over the world. Yeah. That made a bit of difference. 

Anna Sale: As you made a little more money from this project, 

Fran Lebowitz: Not from Netflix. 

Anna Sale: Not from Netflix…

Fran Lebowitz: No. 

Anna Sale: It led to other opportunities, presumably it led to making more money. Do you now think you're paying enough taxes? 

Fran Lebowitz: You know, I have felt most of my adult life, pretty much like the designated taxpayer in New York (audience laughing). Which, also, my tax situation, has helped me predict elections. Because I only make money during Democratic administrations. Like when my first book came out, it was a bestseller. Jimmy Carter was president. And the top tax bracket – which in New York in 1978, if you made a hundred thousand dollars a year, that was the top tax bracket – the taxes were 70%, seven zero. That's what I paid for my first book, 70%. I never paid less than 50% of my income taxes. 

Now this will be okay with me if other people were also doing this, alright? And also if they would like spend them in some sane humane way, you know? I think people should pay taxes, I just don't think it should just be me. I think we should just spread it around a little bit

Anna Sale: I have a question for you about nature. 

Fran Lebowitz: For what? 

Anna Sale: About nature. 

Fran Lebowitz: Nature? 

Anna Sale: Yes. 

Fran Lebowitz: Naturally, you'd come to me.

Anna Sale: Yes, naturally! (audience laughing) You have said, “The outdoors is what I go through to get from my apartment to the taxi cab.” (audience laughing) 

I do wonder, in this time where being outside is a place where we can take our masks off, it's a place where we can gather with friends safely more than inside. Have you noticed your relationship to nature changing at all recently?

Fran Lebowitz: No. (audience laughing) And there is no more nature in New York than there was before. I mean, I lived for 26 years, two blocks from Central Park. I never went there. (audience laughing) I would go there to walk through to get uptown, but, there's certain things people do that I never do, okay? 

I never go to the park. I never... take a walk. I walk as a form of transportation. I walk much more than people who take walks, but I think like, why would you take a walk? Because you could walk to get someplace, which is one of the reasons I like living in the city, because just taking a walk… And I see that people just take walks, they live like in the suburbs and they take walks. This, to me, is the worst of all possible worlds put together. So I never do that. But the worst thing people do – when I say worst, I don't mean, um, malicious, I just mean like mind-boggling – is to take a hike, go on hikes. (audience laughing) Hiking is really an astonishing thing to me.

I know that people around here go on hikes, okay? Yeah. So first of all, the clothes? Horrible. (laughing) The clothes are horrible. I'm sorry, but I mean, the young Julie Christie would look terrible in these clothes. The clothes are horrible. I know that people think they look great in these clothes, but they don't. 

Mostly people hike and they have to go up things, hills, mountains, stuff like that. I would do this only if there was a German soldier behind me with a gun. And then they get to the top and they look around at stuff that you could see, like you could see this stuff in a movie. Yeah, mountains. It's very beautiful. Or sometimes you could see them from the roof of the building when you're smoking. Uh, like here, there's a lot of very good views here. I don't have to hike at all. And then they have to go down, worse. I think it's worse to go down. And people bring their dogs. So in case it's not bad enough, there's dogs there. 

And I have actually been forced to do this, which is how I know about hiking. I actually did this in Alaska, okay? Which has bears in it, okay? So, one thing I don't wanna see are bears. So I was hiking in Alaska. I mean, this was obviously not a trip I paid for, but there was a guy who was a bear guide – that was his profession, so you're not gonna meet him at a party in New York. He could take you bear hunting and you can shoot them or you can just look at them. Like, I would prefer neither because I'm afraid of bears. I'm afraid of dogs, so I don't wanna see a bear, which is a dog by the way, did you know that? 

Anna Sale: Well, by what definition? 

Fran Lebowitz: They’re related to dogs. 

Anna Sale: Okay, okay. 

Fran Lebowitz: So we're walking along and the guy goes, his name is Bruce. I know it’s not a good name for a bear guy, but that was his name. He said, “Now if you see a bear, here's what you have to do. Stand on your toes. Don't run! Do not run away. Because bears run very fast. You could never outrun a bear. And if you run, they're gonna think that you are something they eat and they will run after you and they will eat you.” So he said, “You should stand on your toes, and put your hands in the air so that you look big to the bear. You should make yourself as big as possible, and you should sing. Because if you sing, the bear will know that you're not something it eats, and it'll be more wary of you.”

So I said, “Look, Bruce, listen to me.” (audience laughing) I said, “I promise you that there is not a shred of possibility that I would have the presence of mind to stand on my toes, put my hands in the air, and sing.” I said, “If I saw a bear, I know I would run.” He said, “Well, then you would be eaten by a bear because he would run and he would catch you and he would eat you.” So the entire hike, which seemed to me to take years, I was on top of this guy because he had this big gun, so much that he finally turned to me and said, “You know, Fran, I feel I should tell you I'm a married man.” (audience laughing) 

I said, “Bruce, you are safe with me.” (audience laughing) All the people I was with, they couldn't stop laughing. I said, “Bruce, your appeal for me is that you have this giant gun. And I'm sure that if we saw a bear, you would shoot the bear, and I wouldn't have to pretend to sing and I would not get eaten by a bear.” 

So I'm not against nature. All these people who love nature and are going all the time, they're dangerous to nature but not me. I never go there. 

Anna Sale: Yeah. 

Fran Lebowitz: I leave it alone.

Anna Sale: Before we move, I want to know about the friend who thought, “Who should I invite for this trip to Alaska?” Who to put this together… “Fran.” 

Fran Lebowitz: Well, if you're gonna go on the trip, this is a very lavish trip, then you probably think, “We should have someone who does not wanna go on the bear hike, but we forced her to go because we have the boat.” That’s what I think.

Anna Sale: (laughing) Okay. So outside is not a place that you seek out. I want to be able to picture – when you have a book that you're very excited to read, where do you read it in your home? How do you set up the…? 

Fran Lebowitz: I read on the sofa. 

Anna Sale: Sofa. 

Fran Lebowitz: I have a sofa that I designed. It's falling apart because I had it made like in 1978. I designed it to read on. I know a lot of people have a lot of pillows on their sofa. I don't like to be like eaten by a sofa. So the sofa's leather so that you can like slide, you don't have to like get eaten by some of the thick material. And the arms are rolled so you can put your head on it without any pillows. And this is the perfect place to read.

Anna Sale: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Was that your first major purchase for yourself?

Fran Lebowitz: I bought everything almost that I own all in one year. So, you know, it was all new in 1978 when my first book came out. Before that, I had nothing, then I had everything. And now I have everything but it's very old. 

Anna Sale: (laughing) I want to ask you one last question. Something that you've written about, and that's been a part of your life, is memorial services. Both people you have loved as a young woman who died young, people you have loved throughout your adult life and who have gone before you, and I'm curious if you have any observations on what makes a memorial service well done.

Fran Lebowitz: I have spoken at what seems like a million memorial services. I mean, it started during AIDS and like at a certain point I thought, “Is this my profession?” And it's horrible by the way, I think, to speak at memorial services. But I have also been to many. But I haven't been to that many where I haven't spoken because even if I'm not supposed to speak, when I get there, people say, “Oh, would you like to speak?” “No.” it's very hard to say no. You know, you're not usually allowed to say no. 

But it is a hard thing to do. And one thing I definitely noticed, not me but a lot of other people, is the very significant number of people who take the opportunity to talk about themselves. It's unbelievable. I mean, I've seen some really shocking things. Like my mouth is hanging open, like, could we get to the guy who died? You know? And that's really common. I mean, that may be a very particular New York thing. I think this is maybe a less common thing among, I don't know, nicer people. (laughing)

But sometimes people do so great that you remember what they did. But it's not that common. I would prefer, I would be very happy never to do it again. 

(music)

Anna Sale: That was Fran Lebowitz at the Berkeley Repertory Theatre. 

Thank you to everyone at the Berkeley Rep for inviting me on stage with Fran. And if you find yourself in the Bay Area, make sure you check out what’s on stage there. It’ll likely be excellent and like nothing else you’ve ever seen. I feel so lucky to live nearby. 

Death, Sex & Money is a listener-supported production of WNYC Studios in New York. This episode was produced by Afi Yellow-Duke. The rest of the team is Liliana Maria Percy Ruiz, Zoe Azulay, Tracie Hunte, Lindsay Foster Thomas, and Andrew Dunn. 

​​The Reverend John Delore and Steve Lewis wrote our theme music.

It takes a lot of other people at WNYC to make this podcast, and during this season of gratitude, we want to take a minute to say who we’re thankful for: 

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And finally, to Andrew Golis and Kenya Young, for your listening and leading WNYC Studios into a new future together. 

Thanks also to David Altman in Northfield, Illnois for being a member of Death, Sex & Money and supporting us with a monthly donation. You can join David and support what we do here by going to deathsexmoney.org/donate. 

I’m Anna Sale and this is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC.

(music fades out) 

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