Alan Cumming: What I'm trying to do is to normalize being a hot mess. Even if you're successful and doing all these things, yes, that's my life but I'm not a superhero. I still cry in the shower, you know, sometimes. So I think realizing that you can still have a happy life even though you've got some darkness in you, I think that's the way to go.

This is Death, Sex, and Money.

The show from WNYC about things we think about a lot... and need to talk about more.

I'm Anna Sale.

You know Alan Cumming. Depending on how old you are, you might remember the Scottish actor as Eli Gold on The Good Wife, or the Pee-Wee Herman-esque TV host in the Spy Kids movies, or the emcee in Cabaret.

["Willkommen" — Alan Cumming, Cabaret Ensemble]

Alan is 56 now and he's just written a memoir called Baggage: Tales from a Fully Packed Life that begins around the time that he first performed that role in Cabaret, in the mid-1990s, as his career was taking off, and he was figuring out his public identity.

Alan Cumming: I was in Hollywood, I was making a couple of big films there, and I found these pair of glasses on a sunglasses stall at Venice Beach and I, they were just round black glasses and I just thought they didn't have any, you know, they didn't have Black sunglasses stuff in them, they were just clear. And I just thought these were the greatest frames for me. And I wrote about in the book about how there's a play by Terrence McNally about Maria Callas and she says, "Everyone must have a look!" And she's doing this lecture, and she looks at this person in the audience and she goes, "You do not have a look." 

Anna Sale: [laughter]

AC: And I think it's, that became my look! 'Cause it's a look that really suits me, and I bought them and I thought, "I'm going to make these my prescription glasses." And I went to Australia, and I got the, uh, lenses put into the frames at a little optometrist's in Melbourne and the lady was—that's where my favorite Australian saying came about. I said, "Are you able to do this? You know, I've got these sunglasses and can you do my prescriptions in? And I'm only here till Friday, can you do that?" And she went, "It shouldn't be a drama." And I just love it because it shouldn't be a drama. You what it mean? It was just a great, [laughs] absolutely sort of, you know, jaded and dour kind of delivery of this lady saying something was absolutely true: it shouldn't be a drama. And I just love that.

Alan was attracted to this no drama mantra after a period of a lot of drama in his own life. His first marriage had fallen apart, he was struggling with an eating disorder, and he was coming to terms with the physical and emotional abuse he’d endured from his father when he was a child.

When his marriage ended, Alan moved into his own place for the first time, which suddenly forced him to make choices about what he wanted his life—and his surroundings—to look like.

AC: I discovered that I really like colorful things, bright things. You know, in my first marriage, I very much gave all that sort of... responsibility to my wife, and I just I'd never, I'd never had to understand what I liked in that way. It was all decisions made for me, I was very passive. And then all of a sudden, I was 30, I had this apartment and it was mine, I could do whatever I liked with it and I thought, "What would I do?" I just painted the entire thing bright yellow.

AS: And I want to ask you about, about your eating at the time. Um... you describe struggling with an eating disorder but what, what were the, how did you understand it at the time? What was happening with how you were eating? 

AC:I was aware when people started to get worried about me and sort of say, "You're too skinny, you're not eating enough." You know, and I... you know, you sort of... you know, maybe skip a few meals sort of thing, "Oh, well, whatever," and then it becomes a habit, becomes a pattern. I mean I realized it was... it was the only way I could control—it was the only thing I could control in my life. I think that's what all eating disorders are about, people feel out of control, and the only thing they can control is their body and then that becomes an addiction about eating less and less, sort of, the only thing you can control. You know, you don't quite realize that at the time but then I got really annoyed with everybody's being so concerned. I thought, "Don't be concerned about my weight, be concerned about me." I just, it made me want to do it more. I remember having a dinner with friends that came to see me in Cabaret when I first did it in London. They were all—I was sitting at the end of the table just picking a salad, being very antisocial and I remember they were all really concerned. It's funny you get sort of you feel very objectified and that people are only talking about your body, not about you. And also, I felt I was very much being lauded for being skinny, that was something that was happening as my, my skinniness was a prefix to everything I did.

AS: When was the first time you talked to another man about having disordered eating?

AC:I guess, I had a therapist at that time called Chris, uh, in London. So he, I think it would be him, yeah. I didn't really speak to, at that point, I didn't really speak to anyone, um, about what was going on with me. I just, I was very... I didn't, I kind of I hid it all. So it was a really, really, really difficult time and now I understand all these things. I understand these things about eating and the power thing, you know, I understand I was depressed because I was having flashbacks, repressed memories coming up, very violent and horrible thing. So then I talked to, I think it was it would be talking to his therapist about it. You know, he was great, actually, sometimes you just, all the stars align and you meet someone who just, you are able to connect with a therapist, I mean, I think it's a very intimate and chance-like, you know, interaction. And with him, I think there was a lot going on, and he was really, really helpful. You know, he was my sort of savior in a way. He really gave me back my confidence. 

AS: Do you find when you're stressed now in your life or years after you were 30, do you find that, that sometimes that it shows up with the way that you eat?

AC: It has, uh, a few times, yeah, yeah. I've, I've there's been phases where I have been so busy you forget to eat and you slightly get off on the fact that you haven't eaten and stuff like that. And then you can see changes in your body. Also, as you get older, your body changes, your metabolism changes. Like right now, I, I feel like I have put on little bit of weight, I've noticed. I did this show in August going around in Scotland in a van with Miriam Margolyes, the English actress, sort of a travel series for Channel 4. You know, we had chips, French fries, with every meal for, like, a month. And that was including breakfast! [laughter] And, uh, you know, then I came back to New York and suddenly it was Fashion Week, and I was doing all these events, and I was, you know, and I'm going for fittings. And I used to, I'm sort of sample size, so I don't have to go for fittings, people just send clothes over and they fit. And also, I've been doing quite a lot of, you know, ex, weights and things in the pandemic. So my chest has gotten a little bigger. I've gone to a 40" chest, can you believe it?

AS: Wow. [laughs]

AC: Then I thought after all the chips and it's got a little bit of weight on my tummy and I was like, "Oh, this 32" waist is a little tight." So I really, I guess, I guess I noticed things like that. I kinda like being sample size and I keep fit and all that stuff but it's not sort of, I don't see it in quite the sort of negative damaging way. I don't sort of think I need to do this because that's the only control I have over my situation in my life, not at all. But I'm always very vigilant about tipping into danger areas.

[music]

AS: When you think about that first period of your life when you really felt like you got to feel carefree and have fun, how much was sex and drugs part of that?

AC: Um, not like a massive part. But sex was, I definitely went into a phase where I was having a lot more sex and that was fun. And that that relationship I was in was a very sexual one, and in a really healthy way, I think. Then when that ended, I expanded a little more, my sexual partners and stuff like that, and had a few years of being very— I guess that's my more debauched phase and that's where I'd go out dancing and, you know, ecstasy was the sort of party drug of the time and I used that. I'm not sort of uh, I mean, I like getting stoned, I'm a bit of a stoner. I like drugs that make you feel happy. I don't like drugs that make you speedy, and wired, and mean, and paranoid. I like to relax, and have fun, and feel positive, and loved up.

AS: Um, when you think about... you said your debauched years, your more debauched years, was that the 90s, late '90s? When was that period of your life?

AC: Yes, sort of the late '90s including and into the 2000s actually, yeah.

AS: And can you put to words for you doing ecstasy and feeling loved up, like what did you like about the feeling? What did it open up for you?

AC: What I like about it it's sort of this tingly feeling, your body is kind of you have these rushes, and it's also tingly, and you're sort of  breathless, almost, and it's a bit like having a panic attack. It's kind of like what happens when you have an actual panic attack. And then, then, it changes into this really euphoric sensual glow. So what I really liked about it was that it mirrored, the beginning parts, mirrored what I was experiencing quite a lot in my life at that time, which was, is being a bit short of breath and panicky, and, you know, anxious. Then, it mirrored that but then it forced me to go over the edge into total relaxation, and joy, and release, and that I couldn't do in real life. I kind of I self-medicated with ecstasy, and I think it actually it worked. It really did the trick.

Coming up, Alan tells me about meeting his now-husband and deciding to settle down.

AC: If you're going to start a new relationship when you're 40, it's, you should think that this is it. And so if it's going to be it, you want to look back on all your other relationships say, "Okay, what went wrong? What was I bad at? What was I good at? What do I need? Let's just get it out on the table."

--

We’ve been hearing from quite a few of you about housing, since we asked to hear from those of you who consider your current situation temporary. You’ve sent in stories about the quest to find something more affordable, about moving back home, and about other short-term choices you’ve had to make. 

We’re compiling these for an upcoming series we’re working on with BuzzFeed News all about housing, and we recently heard from a listener named Tavi, who has been living in the Bay Area since 2007.

Tavi: If you were queer, or an artist, or trans, um, if you were a sex worker or a performance artist, like, this was the place. And it was kind of Bohemian paradise, if you will.

Tavi bounced around a variety of living spaces until January, when they said that they were illegally evicted from their last place. They found temporary housing through a friend, but it only lasts until June of next year, and Tavi said that it no longer feels sustainable to stay in the Bay Area. So they’re hitting the road this summer to figure out where to live next…

Tavi: I... am converting my Prius to a live-in tiny home on wheels. And my plan is to go state by state, and both see places that I, as a queer and trans person might feel safe living. And also while I'm at it, I'll see some national parks and beautiful places…. have some adventures, and... that's my plan. Wish me luck!

If you’re also in a temporary housing situation, tell us about it. Record a voice memo, and describe your current living situation to us. Then email it to us at deathsexmoney@wnyc.org.

--

This is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC. I'm Anna Sale.

After his first marriage ended, Alan Cumming had a series of relationships with women and men throughout his 30s, including one that he now describes as abusive, and sometimes even violent.

Alan Cumming: Not like violent in the scale that my father was, but when that... came into it, I was like, "Ooh, this is really... we've got to get out here right now." They were angry and I thought I could fix them. I thought it was my fault. Uh, and that, uh, neither of those things were true.

So then, when Alan was first getting together with his husband, artist Grant Staffer, he knew he wanted to do things differently.

AC: I've, you know, definitely been around the block a few times. So I was very in a phase of now being very sanguine, and honest, and not trying to sweeten myself because I knew what I was capable of, and I knew what I... needed. And I just, I just thought, "I don't want to go through some other mess. I don't want to do that again." Obviously, I just was falling in love with him, but I also just didn't want to, to, I didn't want to blow it and I didn't want to sort of present a false picture of myself. He did that too. You know, he came back to me with his honesty. And so, it was a really great way to start a relationship.

AS: When you think about the beginning of that relationship and that honesty, were there ways that you sort of structured what you wanted to expect from one another in a, in a relationship that you verbalized that you hadn't, in previous relationships, about how it could work?

AC: Yeah. I just, I hadn't really ever done that before. You know, I thought you just kind of meet someone, you fall in love with them, you just think, "Well, here we go." Whereas I think that you know, I... I mean, he said to me that, you know, it's, he, he knew me quite well by this point. And he said, "You know, it seems you like drama, and I don't want to do drama," and I, and he was right. It did seem like that. I had a lot of drama going on in my life, in my personal, you know, love life, if you will. And I said to him, "I know it looks like that, but seriously, I do not want drama." It's, I mean, I have, obviously, I am to blame for that. I, I, I let it happen, I stayed and, you know, I was in a sort of, uh, you know, in a kind of cycle that I wasn't very proud of and I couldn't get out of and I thought I could fix it. I think when you're in an abusive relationship, the first time something crazy happens, you sort of think, "Oh, gosh, that was terrible. I wonder why that happened?" And then, once it's happened two times, then it becomes the norm, and that's it. Then, there you are, you're in this really mental, well, mental is not quite the best, sort of, you know, screwed up, and unhealthy thing, and, you've, and you've not, and it becomes your norm so quickly. And so I was realizing all those things about myself. I was realizing that I needed to break the cycle of those, trying to fix people and... allowing myself to fall into those situations because it was familiar to me, you know? That's what I was realizing. It was comfortable, um, even though it was awful. So, I, that was a situation where I was like, no, I really don't want that. It's not my, um, you know, sweet spot. 

Two years later, Alan and Grant got married in London in a civil ceremony, and were married again in New York in 2012. 

AS: In your, in your relationship now, is monogamy important to you?

AC: Um, no. I mean it's not, it's not something that I think is essential to my wellbeing. I wasn't successful at being monogamous when I thought that it was the best thing to do. I think by my very dint of my gender, that's, that's a more difficult thing for me to achieve or to maintain. And then, I just sort of over the years, sort of realized that it wasn't, why was I, why was I...? If something happened, why would that be the worst thing in the world? I've seen so many relationships just end overnight because of one stupid sort of, you know, blow job or something. I just think it's so ridiculous that that and I think there's many, many ways that you can betray someone much more deeply than that, and if you have a situation where you have talked about the fact that that might happen in your life, and that you will handle it with kindness and respect and care, then it just becomes, uh, less scary a thing. I think more so in same-sex relationships, it's something that people have an understanding of. Uh, and that if it happens, it's not... it's either understood or it's agreed upon, or it's just a sort of thing that, you know, you have talked about it and you've come to some agreement about it, that suits you and that suits your relationship. But for me, I feel like I'm not going to pretend that I'm going to be able to do something that I just know I can't do. And also, that I don't want to do. It's not like I go around having sex with people all over the place, but if that were to happen, I feel that, uh, that's, you know, something that we've sorted out between us.

AS: You write in the acknowledgments of your book, about your husband. Uh, he was responding to seeing you on social media intoxicatedly crowd surfing, wearing a monkey suit [laughs] on another continent. And, and you quote your husband saying, "Alan is a butterfly, and we have to let him fly." And... what a loving, loving thing for a partner to say, that is both seeing you, and fully, like, loving you, and how you are in the world.

AC: Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. And like sometimes, for the last year, with the pandemic, and there's times when he's very worried, I was starting to travel again and, you know, just he was very worried about it because I'm asthmatic and before we were vaccinated, it was quite scary. You know, I was worried about if I caught it, how, how I, you know... my asthma might... it could be really difficult for me. I remember, there was one time where he didn't want me to go to the supermarket. And he goes, "Let me do it. I'll go and you stay here." And I said, "You are trying to keep me in a room, you're trying to—It's like that film, with the, you know, "You can't keep me in the house. You're asking to imprison me in the house."

AS: Wait, are you talking about the Brie Larson movie? Where she's stuck in the—

AC: Yes, yes, yes. [laughter] It was a little more swanky than that, the room I was in. Nonetheless, I was saying to him, "You can't do that. You've crossed the line," that, you know, I'm a grown-up. He was just anxious and being kind, you know, being caring. But sometimes, people's caring and anxiety can kind of go too far and sort of impede your, your life. Anyway, when that was all happening, I said, "I'm a butterfly, remember?!"

AS: [laughter]

AC: He was like, "Yes. Oh, yes, you're right! I've got to let you fly, I've got to let you fly, I've got to let you fly."

AS: Yes, "You have go to the store. You can go to the store."

AC: I have to go to the supermarket, yes. [laughter] Even butterflies have to go to the supermarket. [laughter]

[music]

AS: Is there anything about being, uh, 56 that surprises you, like being this age?

AC: [giggles] I mean, lots, actually, because if I was, 20 years ago, I think 56, oh my God, you know, I'd be pudgy and in my pajamas, all day and, or, you know, I don't know what I'd think, but I, I had this vision of, I mean I remember when I was in drama school thinking, "Oh, God, 21, my life will be over. 30, ugh, ancient!" You know all that stuff, the goalposts change as you get older, in terms of what you think of age, uh, what you do at certain ages.

AS: Yeah, you have a line where you write something like, "Life is a slow march to death, we might as well have fun," or something. [laughs]

AC: Yes, it is though! You know I'm decaying in front of you right now, as we have this conversation, we're both decaying. And, uh, I just think, let's just enjoy it! And the whole trajectory of my life is so alien to what I thought it was going to be. It's completely not, uh, what I thought was transcribed for me, or what I expected or what I hoped even! And, uh, so, I just, I find it, I find it amazing that I'm able to do all the things that I still do and want to do. And I feel like I'm still in touch with, I'm still able to be in touch with, you know, younger people who are young enough to be my children. I have that sort of connection, but at the same time, I've got wisdom from having been through the life I've been through and... so, it's a nice combo.

AS: Do you have any fears about aging?

AC: Um, I mean not about aging as in getting older and... I mean there's obviously things. You think, "Oh, that's my shape of my face, I've got little jowls now." You know it's harder to lose weight than it used to be. I still feel fit and kind of healthy and I like the way my body's going. I like the way I'm looking like I like having gray hair. It's funny the other day, I'm doing this film with Katie Holmes and I went for my costume fitting. And in the, in the description of the character, it said he was kind, early 60s, thinning hair and I was like, "Well, I can do the kind!" And um, I'm sort of doing that thing where I'm playing like people in their 60s! So I got my costume fitting and a couple of the, I heard myself say, "No, this is not good," and "My ass looks too good in this." I know that I don't get—I'm actually at the stage where I'm trying to disguise my, I'm trying to make myself look older!

AS: Look a little more frumpy?

AC: Yeah, yeah. And sort of, you know, less high and tight So we'll see how long that lasts.

That's Alan Cumming. His new memoir is called Baggage: Tales from a Fully Packed Life. And if you or a loved one needs support around an eating disorder, you can call or text the helpline of the National Eating Disorders Association at (800) 931-2237.

Death, Sex & Money is a listener-supported production of WNYC Studios in New York. This episode was produced by Afi Yellow-Duke. The rest of our team includes Katie Bishop, Emily Botein, Caitlin Pierce, and Andrew Dunn. Anabel Bacon also worked on this episode. Our intern is Sarah Dealy.

The Reverend John DeLore and Steve Lewis wrote our theme music. I'm on Instagram @annasalepics, that's P-I-C-S, and the show is @deathsexmoney on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Thank you to Jill Reilly in South Boston, Massachusetts, who is a sustaining member of Death, Sex & Money.  Join Jill and support what we do here, by going to deathsexmoney.org/donate.

Alan has been keeping up with his at-home workouts, and he told me about how he stays motivated while he does them… 

AC: In my gym up, I have a little shed it's a gym where I've been lifting weights and ex—

AS: Where your chest has gotten large, yes. [laughs]

AC: My two-inch expansion from 38" to 40". Uh, I've done this thing where the shed is entirely covered with photographs of me from throughout the years from magazine covers and film posters, and blah, blah, blah.

AS: That's amazing! [laughs]

AC: And so I exercise to thousands of images of my younger, hotter self. And it's a very sort of, uh, good inspiration to, you know, do another thousands of meters on the rowing machine or something.

I'm Anna Sale and this is Death, Sex & Money from WNYC.

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