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Brigid Bergin: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin in for Alison Stewart. Now, we need to talk about something important, something serious, something that I have spent way too much time complaining about this summer, especially in the past few weeks, as it feels like summer's drawing to a close. I am talking about baseball. For the first time since 2016, the New York Yankees seem to be poised to be shut out of the postseason. The team began this year as World Series favorites, but they are currently in last place in the American League East, last place. They have had a dreadful summer despite having stars like home run King Aaron Judge, pitching Ace Gerrit Cole, Giancarlo Stanton, and Anthony Rizzo on the team. Sure, they've struggled with injuries, but so does every team. After the Yankees didn't make any significant changes at the trade deadline, fans like JoezMcFly took to social media to vent their frustration.

JoezMcFly: Doing nothing is crazy. I swear, doing nothing is crazy. I am losing my mind right now. If the Yankees don't at least sell, if they do nothing, I'm going to lose my [beep].

Brigid Bergin: Angry fans like Joez aren't sure who to blame, the underperforming players manager, Aaron Boone, general manager, Brian Cashman, or owner, Hal Steinbrenner. Here to break down the disappointing season is Chris Kirschner who covers the Yankees for the Athletic. Chris, welcome to the show.

Chris Kirschner: Thanks for having me. I wish it was on better terms.

Brigid Bergin: [chuckles] So do I. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What have been your reactions to this very disappointing Yankee season? What do you want to see them do during the off-season? Why do you think they've struggled so badly? We know you have complaints. We want to hear your Yankee opinions. Give us a call at 212-433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC. Maybe you've just stopped watching because these new shorter games are just too depressing. How are you filling the summer sports void?

The New York Liberty are number one in the Eastern Conference standings for the WNBA. Maybe you're watching them instead. Mets fans, we know things aren't any better for you. We're focusing primarily on the New York Yankees in this segment, but if you have something to say about why the Mets are also in last place, some management concerns on either side, we can take a few of your calls. Give you some catharsis on our air as well. The number's 212-433-9692. Okay, Chris, why are the Yankees so bad? Let's talk about how, on paper, this should be a really competitive team. Why can't they live up to their potential?

Chris Kirschner: I think the major thing for the Yankees is going back to last season, they were embarrassed by the Houston Astros in the American League Championship series. They were swept in four games. They struck out 50 times. Even going back into the prior series against Cleveland, they squeaked by Cleveland, and Cleveland's-- they had a good season, but they're not on the Yankees level. The Yankees needed five games, they were down in that series. I think it was the offense that really, really struggled. I was surprised that they didn't upgrade the offense, and really, anyway.

They brought back Aaron Judge, but the Yankees had to do that. He hit 62 home runs last season. He's the most marketable player, maybe in New York sports, so you had to bring him back, but they had to upgrade the offense in some tangible way and they didn't do that. We've seen that this season with the offense. They have the 20th-best offense in the league, so 10th worst in baseball. That's just not going to get it done, especially when, you mentioned, you have stars like Giancarlo Stanton, DJ LeMahieu, Anthony Rizzo. Judge missed two months with a toe injury.

The offense struggling is really the reason why we're here today. There's six games under 500, they're in last place. I mean, barring some miracle, they're not going to make the playoffs. I think this offseason is going to be really important for the Yankees, but looking at the roster, I don't see how they tangibly get better just because of the contracts that they have right now. No one's going to trade for Stanton or DJ LeMahieu or Rizzo. These guys are older, they've shown decline, and teams don't want to take on that risk, so it's going to be interesting.

Brigid Bergin: When you talk about upgrading the offense, what could that look like? What are the options there?

Chris Kirschner: It's tough because when you look at the free agency market this off-season, it's not robust. Shohei Ohtani is the big fish on the market. He has a torn UCL, so it's probably going to limit his value in some way. He pitches and hits. He likely will not pitch at all this upcoming season. He's strictly a hitter. It may lessen the financial blow to any team that signs him. Yankees owner, Hal Steinbrenner, hasn't really shown a willingness to spend like his father, George. When free agency rolled around, you knew the Yankees were going to sign several of the stars no matter what the cost was, but Hal doesn't operate that way?

It's going to be interesting to see what happens. I don't think they're going to spend carelessly, but that's really the only way to improve the situation the Yankees find themselves in. Maybe they signed someone like Toronto third baseman, Matt Chapman, but he's going to cost a lot of money. Chicago Cubs' outfielder, Cody Bellinger, who they were rumored to be interested in at the trade deadline as a free agent. Maybe they try and sign him. He would fit being a left-handed hitter. The Yankees need more left-handed hitters in their lineup, but I don't really see how they tangibly get better. That's why what we're seeing so far in August, and what's going to be the rest of the year. They're playing young players and they're hoping that those guys can really take it and run with it.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go to the phones. David in Queens. Thanks so much for calling All Of It. We're here for your Yankees catharsis for your baseball analysis. What do you have to tell us today?

David: Thanks for having me on. I wanted to say, first, I have a concussion, and I think actually it may be a sympathy concussion for Anthony Rizzo. A concussion that may be is exacerbated by the Yankees performance this year. My thought, and I'm just curious what you guys think is, obviously, there was-- you played the JoezMcfly clip of the trade deadline was a failure because not only did they not buy, but they didn't sell. It feels like some of the hitting philosophy stuff that's been haunting them for the last couple of years. You saw the firing of Dillon Lawson mid-season made it seem like they're aware of this.

I wonder what you guys think about whether it's even feasible that the team can do anything in the next even year. Whether you think it's going to have to be a whole new, as they brought in Sean Casey and you see that he started to get LeMahieu going. You see that Volpe is now been going in the second half. Then you heard that there was a former minor leaguer that was expressing that they didn't seem to know what they were doing down there in terms of hitting philosophy. Do you think it's going to be a hard reset and it's going to really take, I don't know, maybe another year, maybe another cycle to get them reset?

Brigid Bergin: David, thank you so much. You gave us a lot of questions there. For the uninitiated, I think we have to do a little bit of background there. The concussion first for Anthony Rizzo, who we will talk about later in the segment, but who it turns out had a concussion when he had an accident on the field and it wasn't diagnosed for months. Then he talked about Sean Casey, who's the new batting coach that the Yankees brought in to try to boost up their offense so far. I don't think we've seen a lot of results, and one of the questions around him was that he wasn't someone with major league baseball coaching experience to begin with. Can you tell us a little about that change and then to David's question, what can they do to get their bats going?

Chris Kirschner: They fired Dillon Lawson, the exiting coach, mainly because he wasn't really connecting well with the players. Lawson is not a former major leaguer. The Yankees have a roster built on veterans. I think Lawson did a really good job in the minor leagues and that's where he came from, establishing the Yankees hitting philosophy on that level. When he got to the majors, you're dealing with guys like Stanton, LeMahieu, Rizzo, they've been around the league for a while, and they don't want someone who hasn't played in the major leagues to tell them how to hit the ball. It just doesn't work like that.

That's one of the main reasons why they brought in Sean Casey. He was a career 300 hitter. Was really, really good with the Cincinnati Reds. He knows what it's like to be in the box. He's played in big games, so he can relate to the players much better than what Dillon Lawson could when he was with the Yankees. Two days ago when I was in Tampa, DJ LeMahieu had two home runs in a game against the Rays. He said after the game that one of the things that he's liked since Sean Casey has taken over the hitting coach position is he can relate to him.

Brigid Bergin: Sure.

Chris Kirschner: DJ is very soft-spoken. He's not into the analytics craze that has taken over baseball. He just goes in the box, sees the ball, hits the ball, and just keeps it as simple as that. That's what Sean Casey has preached to LeMahieu and the other veterans. As far as talking about a hard reset, I just don't see it. The Yankees don't operate that way. They have a stadium that they have to sell out every night. They have a massive worldwide audience. I don't know if fans can stomach what the Baltimore Orioles have done.

The Orioles were really, really bad for five or six years and now they're leading the division. I don't see the Yankees doing that, especially because they still employ Aaron Judge and Gerrit Cole. They're two of the best players in the sport. You have to maximize their primes. That's why I said before, looking at it, it's tough to say the Yankees are going to turn it around. Because older players don't necessarily have a renaissance in their mid-30s like what you're expecting the Yankees to do. It's going to be a challenge to see them get better in 2024, but we'll see.

Brigid Bergin: We are talking baseball in New York this summer. We're talking about the Yankees, just disastrous season. We'll even let a few Mets fans call in and talk about their disastrous season. We want to hear from you. What are your reactions to why things have been going so badly for New York baseball? The numbers 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can also tweet or text us. The number, again, 212-433-9692. You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin in for Alison Stewart. My guest is Chris Kirschner. He reports on the Yankees for the Athletic. We'll be back after just a moment with more of your calls and more of what's going wrong with the Yanks.

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Brigid Bergin: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergen in for Alison Stewart, and we're wrapping things up today with a little conversation about baseball in New York, specifically the Yankees, why their season has been so, so, so terrible. Let's talk about maybe some of the reasons why, some of the folks behind the decisions that have led to this point. Chris, how much do you think fans should hold manager Aaron Boone responsible for how truly terrible the season has gone?

Chris Kirschner: I think he's part of the problem. I don't think he's the biggest problem. He can't control how the veterans hit. He can't control how the pitchers pitch. He puts them in positions to ultimately have success. That's why I feel like he is at least partly to blame. If we're listing the people of fault of the Yankees' problems, I don't think he's one or two. I think number one has to be Brian Cashman, the general manager.

Like I said a few minutes ago, the Yankees had a ton of question marks coming into the season, and they just didn't address them. They went into the season without a competent left fielder. They thought Oswaldo Cabrera, a rookie who only played 10 games in left field was going to be the answer. That didn't work out. They went into the season with Aaron Hicks still on the roster, who the Yankees were desperately trying to trade in the off-season. They didn't.

They ultimately designated him for assignment. That didn't work out. They thought Josh Donaldson, their third baseman, would have a bounce-back season. That didn't work out. There were a lot of roster decisions that they were counting on and probably shouldn't have counted on. That didn't work out. That's why I feel like if we're blaming anybody, I think we have to start with Brian Cashman.

Brigid Bergin: What do you think, though? I mean, it will be partly up to Brian Cashman making the decision about if Boone returns next year. If you had to put odds on that, do you see him coming back?

Chris Kirschner: As of now, I don't think Aaron Boone will return, because number one, they're likely finishing in last place in the division. For the Yankees, that's just totally unacceptable. They have the second-highest payroll in baseball behind the Mets. For Yankees fans, at least you can say we're not the Mets. For the Yankees, something has to change this off-season. I think Boone is probably the likeliest person to take the blame, which again, I don't think it's all his fault. I think he's probably the likeliest to go in the off-season.

Brigid Bergin: Let's go to Ernie, who is on the Jersey Turnpike. Ernie, are you there?

Ernie: Hi. Yes, I am.

Brigid Bergin: What's your Yankee's opinion?

Ernie: Well, the Yankees stink. I'm a big Yankee fan, but your caller is really spot on, I think. They never should have signed Giancarlo Stanton. They absolutely didn't need him. They don't need another right-handed hitter in their lineup with Judge. I think they should have traded when he was a prospect last year. They should have traded Volpe for Castillo of Cincinnati. They needed a good pitcher because of all the pitchers that Cashman has gotten, he got the guy from Oakland who they knew was injured when they signed him, but they traded for him anyway. Now he's gone, so they got absolutely nothing on him. You're right, they should have gotten some left-handed hitter. The guy from the Cubs, they could have gotten him. They might get him in the off-season now.

Brigid Bergin: Ernie, thank you so much for that call. Chris, a lot there, a lot of critiques, Yankee fans. We have many, many opinions. What are some of your reaction to Ernie's thoughts?

Chris Kirschner: Going back to the Giancarlo Stanton trade, at the time he had just won the National League MVP with Miami. He had 59 home runs. The Yankees didn't trade much to get Stanton at the time. I thought it was a fine deal. I agree with him that it's redundancy when you look at Stanton and Judge together on the same team. We're seeing that now. He mentioned the fact that it's right-handed dominant.

That's been one of the issues for the Yankees, especially in the playoffs, because of the intensity of pitching decisions, you're seeing better pitching overall. It's easy to game plan for a team that's pretty much all right-handed. I agree with him there. The Frankie Montas deal, the pitcher they traded from Oakland, that deal was a disaster. They were asking for trouble with that.

He did have a shoulder injury shortly before the trade deadline. Cashman took a risk there because they also didn't trade much in that deal, and they got a discount there. As far as trading for Luis Castillo from Cincinnati, the Cincinnati Reds wanted Anthony Volpe in that deal and another top prospect, either Jasson Dominguez or Spencer Jones. That's just too much. Pitching, it hasn't been that great this season, but it wasn't the problem. They needed more offense. I think Anthony Volpe has done a fine job in his rookie season. I do think he can be a really good player moving forward.

Brigid Bergin: We talked a little bit about injuries already. Aaron Judge injured his toe. Mr. Cortez has been in and out, Anthony Rizzo, Carlos Rodón. How do you think injuries have set this team back?

Chris Kirschner: They've set him back a ton. When Judge went down with his toe injury in June crashing into the wall at Dodger Stadium, if you look at the playoff odds and the graphs of their odds of making the postseason, it really starts to go downhill once Judge goes down with the injury. I think that is one of the problems that the Yankees have shown the season is that they're so reliant on Aaron Judge being superhuman. If he's not superhuman, then the problems begin to arise.

I think last season Judge hit 62 home runs, and he covered up a lot of the issues that were bubbling at the surface. Because he was so incredible no one was really talking about him, but you could see that the offense wasn't really that good if Judge wasn't doing what he did last season, and that's really been the issue this year.

They signed Carlos Rodón to a six-year $160 million plus deal in the off-season. That hasn't gone well at all. He missed several months with a forearm injury and a back injury. Even when he's been healthy, he just hasn't been the pitcher that they thought. Nestor Cortes, when he was healthy wasn't the pitcher he was. Last year, he was an all-star. He just didn't look right this season and he's probably going to miss the rest of the year. That was someone who they were counting on tremendously.

Rizzo was really, really good in the start of this season. Then when he had the concussion, San Diego, Padre Star, Fernando Tatis, rammed him in the head at first base on a pickoff attempt, and he wasn't the same after that. He was actually the worst hitter in the sport before the Yankees got him neurological testing, and they discovered that he was playing through concussion-like symptoms for two months.

Brigid Bergin: How did something like that happen? That is one of the more bewildering injuries here. He was on the injured list, comes back, plays terribly, and then suddenly they discovered he had had a concussion the whole time. How does the medical staff miss something like a concussion for so long?

Chris Kirschner: I actually did a deep-dive story on this because I had the same reaction that you have, is that, how was this missed? You don't just go from being one of the better hitters in the league to the literal worst hitter in the league overnight. There just wasn't any testing because there's a lot of trust in the player in these situations. The Yankees were relying on Rizzo to tell him, are you okay? He says he's okay. The Yankees don't want to overstep their boundaries with the player. They don't want to lose that trust in the locker room. If Rizzo was saying that he's good, he's good.

I talked with Rizzo and he was saying that his wife, his parents, his agent, his friends were like, are you sure you're okay? He was telling them, "I'm fine. Stop asking me about this." It's tough. Major League Baseball doesn't have additional concussion testing for a player who goes through the initial test. They probably should because what we've seen is, this guy was playing through a brain injury for two months. I think it's something that Major League Baseball should look into this off-season, but who knows with that? It's definitely alarming.

Brigid Bergin: Let's bring some more callers into this conversation. I think Gregory in Manhattan is maybe going to bring us a little sunshine, a little good news in this very dark conversation about the New York Yankees.

Gregory: Thank you very much. I just have to, and I love the show. Come on guys. The Yankees have more wins than anybody else in the World Series. The Yankees have been around. I watched them lose to the Pirates in 1960. They have been disappointing and they have been wonderful. Nobody is going to catch them in World Series wins, and if we just hang in there and stay fans, they'll be back. I might remind you, we went 10 years, almost a decade without doing very well just a while back. Nobody is losing their bleep over that at them. [crosstalk]

Brigid Bergin: Gregory, are you telling us that we should have some perspective here, a historical memory perhaps? Are you saying perhaps we should not-

Gregory: Exactly.

Brigid Bergin: -overreact a bit? We're Yankees fans. We can't help ourselves. We expect to win all the time. I'm not saying that I am, I'm saying that's what Yankees fans do. To be clear, totally impartial here in the host seat today. Gregory, thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate, a little bit of a bright spot in this darker conversation. Let's go to Amanda in Manhattan, who I think has a different perspective entirely, because, well, she's not a Yankees fan. Amanda, welcome to WNYC.

Amanda: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I did not expect to get on air. Just full disclosure, I'm a lifelong hardcore Baltimore Orioles fan.

Brigid Bergin: Forgiven.

Amanda: I'm happy with the season that's going on. I guess I just wanted to say an obvious reason I think is not just that the Yankees are playing really bad. There's also just a lot of good baseball that's happening and a lot of good teams that are bringing their A-game. I think they would still be doing it if the Yankees were even a little bit better. I think credit should go to other teams playing really well, not just, oh, the Yankees are bad. All of these subpar teams are beating them.

Brigid Bergin: Some fair food for thought there, Amanda. Thank you so much for that call. Chris, a little reaction to our callers, maybe, Greg with his reminder that the Yankees are still at the top of who has all the World Series championships, and then also these other teams are playing really well. Deserve a little credit there.

Chris Kirschner: For the first caller, I'm 31 years old. I was four years old when I started watching the Yankees. That was 1996. Very good time to start watching Yankees baseball. I think Yankees fans can lose perspective just because of all the championships that they've won over the last few decades now. It could definitely be much worse. You could be a Pirates fan or a Tigers fan, and not experience anything for numerous years. I definitely agree with that.

It's just that the fact that when you're paying so much money to field the team, you should be better than what your record is right now. As far as the Baltimore Orioles, they have been the most impressive team in all of baseball to me. They're going to be a problem for the Yankees moving forward. They have several young players who are in their young 20s, Gunner Henderson, their shortstop is probably going to win Rookie of the Year. They have an 18-year-old Jackson Holiday who's in Double-A.

He might be the best prospect in all of baseball. He's going to be a really big problem for the Yankees in the years ahead. The Baltimore Orioles are going nowhere. I think they're going to win-- They might win a couple of World Series in these next few years just because of how gifted their young players are. That's the team that if I'm a Yankees fan, I'm most concerned about Baltimore.

Brigid Bergin: Chris, final question. What's the one thing you're going to be watching for in the off-season?

Chris Kirschner: How they improve the offense. We've talked about it. They need to improve the offense, and I just don't see it happening just because of who's available in free agency.

Brigid Bergin: We're going to have to leave it there. Chris Kirschner covers the Yankees for the Athletic. Chris, thanks so much for joining me.

Chris Kirschner: Thanks for having me.

Brigid Bergin: On the next All Of It, an interview with a filmmaker of a new documentary about a New York political firebrand, Bella Abzug. That new documentary Bella. Plus an update on the Hollywood strikes. That's tomorrow at noon. I'm Brigid Bergin filling in for Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening, and I'll meet you back here next time for more of All Of It on WNYC.

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