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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, again, everyone. With us now the veteran Democratic Party organizer based here in New York, Luis Miranda, who has written a memoir called Relentless. As a behind-the-scenes guy who hasn't run for office himself, he's not a household name, but his son is Lin-Manuel Miranda, who also wrote the foreword to the book. We'll talk about that a little bit.

Luis writes about him. Luis Miranda's New York story starts with a decision to study psychology at NYU rather than law in Puerto Rico where he grew up, and we'll take it from there with him. The full title of the book is Relentless: My Story of the Latino Spirit that is Transforming America. Luis, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Luis Miranda: It is a pleasure to be here with you, Brian. It has been a long time.

Brian Lehrer: Indeed. Let's just get some of your biography on the table here. Then we'll talk about some of the issues as we go including up to the minute, the so-called Latino vote in the 2024 election and why there seems to be a decent amount of support for Trump in various Latino communities, even though he would just as soon deport everybody. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Luis Miranda: I was born in a small town in Puerto Rico, Vega Alta. I then went to the University of Puerto Rico where I finished my BA and was recruited by the clinical psych PhD program at NYU and came to New York having just turned 20.

Brian Lehrer: We'll get to you in New York having just turned 20 and NYU, but what was it like in the place you grew up? Is there a short version of what kind of childhood you feel like you had or a picture you can paint for our listeners who've never been there?

Luis Miranda: Absolutely. Imagine a small town of six streets. We continue to have six streets. We have grown in other parts, but the actual town where we lived was six street. I went to the public schools in my town from elementary to high school. It's a place where everyone knows everyone. My dad was the manager of the local credit union, so we knew everybody's economics, business and family situation.

My mother owned a travel agency, so we knew all the ins and outs of everyone who was leaving the town and visiting any place, mostly New York and Florida. It's a small town. When I came to New York, trying to recreate that place that I'm sure I make much better than it was, a place where people knew each other, where people helped each other, where people gossip and fought with each other, it's the hallmark of what I wanted in a neighborhood in New York.

Brian Lehrer: It's what migrants, and I won't say immigrants because you're from Puerto Rico, you're a US citizen to begin with, but I think it's what immigrants and other migrants do in New York and lots of other places. If you come from a smaller town, and suddenly you're in this megalopolis, New York City, you connect with other people who are from there, if you can, if there is such a community at first, and you recreate a little community before you can jump in to the problems and the issues and the lives of the bigger communities. Does that makes sense to you?

Luis Miranda: It totally makes sense. The beauty of New York, it's that even though we're an eight-and-a-half million people place, there are neighborhoods. When I came to New York, I lived in Chelsea. At that point, Chelsea was majority Puerto Rican. It felt like a neighborhood. Then we moved to NYU because we were students at NYU, and the village felt like a little community. Then the last 42 years, we have been in Washington Heights, which is another community. It doesn't matter how big this city is. You could find happiness in your little part of the world while you venture to the larger space.

Brian Lehrer: Great thought. It's 1974, exactly 50 years ago, and you're thinking of what, going to law school in Puerto Rico versus grad school in psychology?

Luis Miranda: No. That ship had sailed. When I came to New York, there was no more law in Puerto Rico. It was clinical psychology at NYU. On the one hand, my desire to be a clinical psychologist, on the other hand, my want forever to come to New York. I remember, as a kid-- People don't remember what postcards looked like, but I grew up with postcards of New York and the iconic Empire State Building. For me, it was this unbelievable place that I wanted to be part of.

Brian Lehrer: How did psychology lead to politics?

Luis Miranda: Because I realized that my call was not clinical psychologist. I was fortunate that enough professors told me that clinical psychology, at least not the way it was being taught at NYU was my call because they said that I always try to rush "the therapeutic relationship." If I was with someone, and for three damn weeks, we have been discussing the first thing and what that meant, I wanted the fourth week to be somewhere else. My professors kept telling me, clients, patients moved at their own pace, not at the pace you set for them. I've said, "Then this is not for me."

Brian Lehrer: I understand. In contrast to that, you can solve all the political problems in just three weeks, right?

Luis Miranda: Absolutely. You are doing so many things at the same time. You are dealing with so many characters and so many issues that it felt, on the one hand, that I didn't have to go person by person to make the city better but that I could work with systems and groups of people to make the city better.

Brian Lehrer: Before we get into your first contact with the New York City mayor and then your relationship with various of them, I just want to read one thing as a sidelight from the foreword to your book by your son, Lin-Manuel Miranda. He writes, "In his typical overachieving fashion, Luis has really written three books. There's his life story, as improbable as that of his favorite character, Debbie Reynolds' Unsinkable Molly Brown, 'I'm going to stop right there.'" Unsinkable Molly Brown was your favorite character?

Luis Miranda: Yes. Have you seen The Unsinkable Molly Brown?

Brian Lehrer: I don't think I ever actually saw it.

Luis Miranda: Oh my God. You're so deprived of wonderful things. You got to go and see it. In fact, for my 60th birthday, I rented a theater, didn't tell anybody. They thought they were coming to a party, and in fact, they were coming to see The Unsinkable Molly Brown because too often I heard what you just told me, "I don't think I have seen it." The Unsinkable Molly Brown, it's the lady, a minuscule character in our history, but she was relentless. She knew that there was a life beyond the little plays where she was, and she found it. I always identify with that spirit of trying to figure out what's bigger and what can you do in that bigger stage.

Brian Lehrer: Luis Miranda, if you're just joining us, is our guest. His new memoir is called Relentless: My Story of the Latino Spirit that is Transforming America. Listeners, Puerto Rican listeners or anyone else, who has a question or a story for Luis Miranda at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text. It's New York City politics, New York City history, Puerto Rican and other New York City politics and history, the mayors of the last 50 years. If you're a musical theater writing son of Luis, you can call in or anyone else, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. What was your first real contact with the New York City mayor?

Luis Miranda: It was really with a catch. Like any migrant or immigrant coming into the United States, it takes a while to get your bearings. People used to tell me, and I say that in the book, in Relentless, people used to tell me, "Oh, now that so many Puerto Ricans moved to New York after Maria, we need to get them to vote." I always said, "We need to first try to help them figure out where their kids are going to school."

Brain Lehrer: After Hurricane Maria.

Luis Miranda: Yes. It's always a bumpy road when you go to a new place. It took me a while. I was involved. I worked in the city. I worked for nonprofits. It was friends who said, "The Special Advisor for Hispanic Affairs job has opened up. Why don't you apply?" I did and went to an interview with late Mayor Koch. The interview was actually delayed three weeks because I got measles as a 30-year-old man. That's when I met the mayor and had a great conversation and ended up in the last term of his administration.

Brain Lehrer: Ed Koch, in office from 1978 to 1989, his legacy seems to run from helping New York recover from the fiscal crisis of the '70s to becoming a racially polarizing figure. Not quite Giuliani but maybe a precursor. Is that too harsh?

Luis Miranda: It is too harsh. He's also the person who spent a chunk of money for the first time in building affordable housing, in rebuilding with Freddie Farrer and others in the Bronx, the devastation that the Bronx was in. He was someone who said was in his mind, sometimes offensive. He was also the person who gave me carte blanche when President Reagan signed the amnesty in 1986, the only amnesty we have seen in our adult life, to really go through the city and make sure that everyone who didn't have papers could get them with the new legislation.

Brain Lehrer: Amnesty for Undocumented Immigrants, which people forget, Ronald Reagan signed into law. Did you work with Dinkins?

Luis Miranda: I did. Koch had appointed me to the Health and Hospitals Corporation as a board member, I stayed on. He had asked some of us, "If you want to continue to serve the city in any way, please let me know." I had that training as a clinical psychologist, so I figured this is a good place to continue to serve the city as a volunteer. I worked for the entire Dinkins' term as a board member of the Health and Hospitals leading the Capital Committee, which was an important committee because there was so much building of the health infrastructure that was taking place.

Brain Lehrer: Do you think that, or you could cite one thing of your choice, is something we don't remember enough about Mayor David Dinkins because he probably did a lot that people think, "Oh, nice guy," but round up being divisive, even in trying to be soft on everybody and lost after one term. What do you think is an important thing to take with us about the David Dinkins mayoral take?

Luis Miranda: I know Mayor Giuliani was the one who inaugurated tons of 42nd Street and Times Square. All of that planning and the beginning of that development happened under Mayor Dinkins. We don't give him enough credit for everything he did and for continuing to worry about a staple of New York politics, which is that government should be helping people, that government is the only place with enough resources to make families better, stronger and neighborhood stronger.

Brain Lehrer: Listener writes, "I've never heard of this guy, but of course, have heard of his son. Now, I know why his son is who he is. Papa Miranda sounds like a poet, university professor and a politician, all in one. Can you ask him if he can cook? I just have to know." [chuckles]

Luis Miranda: My son is a great cook as I am.

Brain Lehrer: You?

Luis Miranda: I am a fantastic cook. In fact, I've been married 46 years.

Brian Lehrer: Aww.

Luis Miranda: You could ask my wife, I am the one who cook the most often in my house, and I start by bringing her coffee in the morning at 5:30 every morning for the last 46 years.

Brain Lehrer: Another listener writes, "It's important to ask Luis about his support and involvement with the Puerto Rico Oversight Management and Economic Stability Act, a largely controversial Congressional act that imposed austerity measures and debt restructuring that made Wall Street rich and severely hurt the island." Do you accept the premise?

Luis Miranda: I don't. Couple of things. One, they were already rich, and they used Puerto Rico as a piggy bank. When President Obama was in charge, Congress was in Republican hands, he asked for our help to make sure something was passed in Puerto Rico where bankruptcy could be an option because the alternative was for this rich people to just dip into the Puerto Rican treasury and be the first ones paid. No doubt, it was the only alternative that the President saw at that point to help Puerto Rico.

I have learned through my life that you sometimes have to make tough decisions. You could stay on sidelines and criticize. That's a possibility. I have done plenty of that in my own life, or when you have an opportunity, you could always try to help. By now, the Puerto Rico, the Archipelago, it's in a different place, it should be dismantled. Also, remember that I came to New York in the middle of a fiscal crisis, and similar situation was created in the city to make sure that we prospered and went to the other side.

Brain Lehrer: Do you have a position on the existential question of Puerto Rican politics, independence versus statehood versus continued Commonwealth status?

Luis Miranda: I do. I have always been pro-independence. That is not a secret for all of those who know me. I also know that back four years after I came to New York, I made the decision to stay in New York and raise a family in New York.

The ultimate goal of what's the status of Puerto Rico has to be made by the three million people who stayed in Puerto Rico in [unintelligible 00:18:54] Guatemala and have had to go through everything that Puerto Rico has gone through. It is their choice. Our job in the United States, it's to make sure Congress hears and that whatever Puerto Ricans decide, Congress accept as the ultimate political goal for the island. We know that what we have in a colonial situation for the last 126 years is untenable.

Brain Lehrer: Michelle in Harlem, you're on WNYC with Luis Miranda. Michelle, you saw a documentary about him and Lin-Manuel?

Michelle: Yes. Hi, Brian and Luis. I saw the documentary about a year or two ago. Of course, I know the son, but the father, I was so impressed. I want to just give you your props and thank you for the advocacy. My story and my question is, I grew up in East Harlem. It's one of the neighborhoods. My father lived there for 50 years, and this is in the '70s. My sister and I went to Saint Cecilia, our parish church. Saint Cecilia's, just celebrated its 100 years. For a long time now, my contemporaries who are now in their 60s, but there's no more Puerto Ricans left in East Harlem. I really saw that when the church had its 100th anniversary last year, and it was predominantly Mexicans, who were the parishioners.

Joe Batan, who was my sister's best friend's father, they went to school, he had a concert, and there was hardly any Puerto Ricans there. I know there was a lot of controversy about Mexicans taking over, and no Puerto Ricans left. I feel bad, too, because these were my friends. I went to their mother's house to have my [unintelligible 00:20:58] and rice and beans. I was just wondering how you feel about this. What are your thoughts?

Luis Miranda: It's the story of New York. I am sure the Irish felt the same way when we moved to Washington Heights, and we began to change the neighborhood. What I believe is that the next chapter of a neighborhood will be a good one if we continue to understand the roots that someone planted there and the next steps that we need to take to make the neighborhood better.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Michelle, thank you for your call. Do you write about how the Immigration Act of 1965, passed by Congress, has changed New York? It opened the gates wider to immigration from Mexico, as Michelle was referring to, from all kinds of countries. Honestly, thinking about Lin-Manuel's In the Heights, which I did see. I didn't see The Unsinkable Molly Brown, but I did see In the Heights.

Luis Miranda: You have to see it. Now, you have homework.

Brian Lehrer: The Dominican community in Washington Heights really grew to define the area as a result, just as one example. Do you write about that law or the whole last 60 years in that context?

Luis Miranda: I do. In Relentless, I talked about that period because, for an entire year, it became my most important job. All of a sudden, there were hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers who have come to Manhattan and to the Borough from somewhere else, and there was a possibility. There was enough paperwork that they needed to do. I worked hand in hand with a special advisor for Asian affairs.

I always remember and tell the story in the book once we were in Queens in Jackson Heights, and we had a mixed crowd of Latinos, mostly Colombians and Ecuadorians and Chinese. First, Eva Tan spoke about the law and what needed to be done. Then I came and spoke in Spanish about the law and what needed to be done. Lin-Manuel looked at me and says, "I didn't know you speak Chinese, Daddy," because I follow Eva in another language. It was important part of our history, the only time that we have been able to help hundreds of thousands get out of the shadow and become legal people working in our city and now the country.

Brian Lehrer: Marissa in Rockland County, you're on WNYC with Luis Miranda. Hello, Marissa.

Marissa: Hi. Good afternoon. I have a question for Mr. Miranda as a Puerto Rican born in the Bronx but raised in Puerto Rico, then got married and relocated back to New York and raised my three daughters here. Do you think after making your last statement of being an independent, Puerto Rico will survive an independence after being a colony for so many years and depending on the funds of the states? For as long as I could remember, I see Puerto Rico being a colony in the past, a colony in the present and a colony forever because United States will never release that territory.

Luis Miranda: Marissa, in my saddest moment, I take on the view that things may not be able to change. However, we have seen through history that it's possible, that it's not easy, that it's a difficult task, but only the will of the people will get there. It is the will of the people if they decide to go there that will make a different reality for Puerto Rico. If not, as I said, will continue to be a colony.

Brian Lehrer: It's tough, though. It would be tough economically. In addition to what Marissa raised, economically to suddenly not get the benefits economically of the US government to the extent that there are?

Luis Miranda: It is tough, but life and the life of countries, it's full of tough moments. I believe, and by the way, others believe that statehood is the solution, that becoming the 51st State of the Union and the poorest state of the union, it's the solution, is the ultimate gold of the American citizenship that was given to Puerto Ricans back in 1917. I believe in the human spirit. I have seen countries move from colonialism to a different stage in development.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Mike, in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. We've got about 30 seconds for you. Hi, there.

Mike: Hi, Luis Miranda. There's a lot of talk about-- It's almost like a surprise to people that so many people from Puerto Rican background, a Latin background, are going to the political right. All I can say is, for me, I saw in my [unintelligible 00:27:10] generation, Italian Americans, I think there's an analogy where his generation became Reagan Democrats because they had similar backgrounds. They were Catholic. They worked hard. They viewed themselves as immigrants who did things the right way.

There was a huge shift, and I think, to this day, we still see it in places like Long Island. I'm wondering what your views are because, to me, it's no surprise that-- Because then there's other Italian Americans who doubled down and became very liberal, but in the old days, it was taken for granted that they would be Democrats.

Brian Lehrer: Mike, facts.

Mike: Then my father's generation made a shift, and I'm wondering if you see that analogy with people from Spanish background.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much, Mike. You see it, Luis?

Luis Miranda: You'll see some of that, but remember I worked with a young woman, Mexican American, who was fifth-generation Mexican American running for AG against criminal Paxton in Texas. She had different positions than me as a New Yorker, but as a fifth-generation Mexican, she still thought the Democratic Party, it's the party that will help Latinos the best.

Brian Lehrer: The polls were saying 50-50 among Latino voters in America for Trump. How much of it do you even believe?

Luis Miranda: Some of it, but when you dig a little into the poll, and I ask everyone to do that before they repeat that we are 50-50, we're usually 8%, 9% of the sample. Most of the interviews were done in English, even though a third of our community speaks Spanish and gets its political information. We know the only poll that has been done recently of a Latino sampled nationwide showed that Latinos were at 49% supporting Biden from the 66 that we did. That is a big drop.

That Trump's support had not increased beyond the base of some Latino groups in Florida and in more conservative parts of the country. The rest are waiting to hear the message because I have said in the book, in Relentless, we are persuadable voters, not necessarily base voters, and Democrats need to remind us why is it that we believe that they should be in power.

Brian Lehrer: Luis Miranda, longtime Democratic party organizer, is now the author of a memoir called Relentless: My Story of the Latino Spirit that is Transforming America. This was wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing everything.

Luis Miranda: Thank you for having me here, Brian.

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